Salary inequalities

[hovis]

Why is the top brass exclusively male? Same for almost every industry. Decades of inequality. It can’t be left to naturally even itself out, that would take hundreds of years. Action is needed to accelerate progress.

Or is it because these top men choose to dedicate their life to their job? Elon musk slept on the floor of his office. My wife's boss works 14 hours a day and she's reached the top.
Perhaps women want more from life such as a loving caring family rather than a desk to sit at 7 days a week, 14 hours a day. I think women are a lot more grounded and sensible in that sense

 

[AmandaJR]

I don't know exactly

How many women apply for these jobs compared to men? Is it equal, or do significantly more men apply for these jobs. If few women apply for these jobs, why? Is it through choice, or are there barriers? If there are barriers, what are they. Are they less well educated, or do they not apply due to a feeling of not being wanted? In Sweden, where they have gone gone towards providing a society that gives the best equality of opportunity, why has the outcome provide larger differences between men and woman (as I have read reported)?

I think we all agree that, if there is a top job going and the employer is favouring males over females, simply because of sex, that is entirely wrong. So, if the applicants are 50/50, I'd expect the jobs to be given out at that sort of rate as well. Also, if there are jobs with definitive pay scales, then I'd expect them to remain the same regardless of sex. If they didn't, I'd imagine the company would not avoid legal action.

Of course, there is the other reasons that, going back a few decades, society had an expectation that men go to work, women stay at home, in general. I am sure that still has an impact in today's figures? Some of the top men in industry will be approaching retirement, and will have started their careers when that was the attitude in society. Likewise, many females of the same age may never have worked, or done lower paid jobs, less hours (part time), etc and so never had decades to climb a ladder. However, the attitudes in todays society are very different. I don't believe young girls are told they are expected to be stay at home mothers and young boys the bread winners. I think that attitide started to significantly change 20/30 years ago (trying to think back when I was at school in 90's), and I know attitudes continue to change. So, maybe if we give it another 20-40 years, we'll find extremely different figures in the pay gap comparison? When all those that started working decades ago have long retired, and the young of today have had the chance to climb the ladder to the high pay positions. It would be interesting to see what the gender pay gap will be then. Will it close, increase, stay the same? Could we get to a point were we actually see women getting paid more than men in general?

As posted above by @sunshine:

"Decades of inequality. It can’t be left to naturally even itself out, that would take hundreds of years. Action is needed to accelerate progress."

I've read the replies again and lots of "oh I'd like to think it doesn't exist" etc etc. It does.

 

[hovis]

As posted above by @sunshine:

"Decades of inequality. It can’t be left to naturally even itself out, that would take hundreds of years. Action is needed to accelerate progress."

I've read the replies again and lots of "oh I'd like to think it doesn't exist" etc etc. It does.

Where does it exist? I would like specifics rather than it just happens. I am somewhat blinkered as I work in the public sector where you are at a HUGE advantage being a woman.

 

[AmandaJR]

Where does it exist? I would like specifics rather than it just happens. I am somewhat blinkered as I work in the public sector where you are at a HUGE advantage being a woman.

As I said. Look on the government website as all companies with over 250 employees have to report. It is a little blunt but take the median figure - doesn't take long to find those with a pay gap. Google it - many independent economic reports and I've yet to find one that says it doesn't exist. Maybe you are blinkered due to your own circumstances but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist for plenty of others.

 

[Swango1980]

As posted above by @sunshine:

"Decades of inequality. It can’t be left to naturally even itself out, that would take hundreds of years. Action is needed to accelerate progress."

I've read the replies again and lots of "oh I'd like to think it doesn't exist" etc etc. It does.

Highlight were someone says it does not exist please? The only areas where I have read this is where is seems unlikely that companies very specifically pay females less than males. I'm not saying there is not a handful of sexist pig employers out there, but in general this sort of company policy would get absolutely torn to pieces if the lawyers got involved.

As I finished in my last post, I have highlighted that society was a very different place decades ago compared to today. However, even if we have managed to now produce perfect equality of opportunity to kids starting their careers, we wouldn't get the overall results across the entire working population for decades. Unless you propose sacking / demoting all males approaching retirement, and replacing them with women of the same age? I certainly wouldn't be surprised if the pay difference is much greater to those in their later years, and I'd like to think the difference is less between young male and females. I don't know the figures, so I am only hypothesising this may be the case.

Hopefully you'll agree that the following statement does absolutely nothing to explain exactly why this is happening, let alone offer any sort of solution: "Decades of inequality. It can’t be left to naturally even itself out, that would take hundreds of years. Action is needed to accelerate progress."

I know this is not the place where we will solve the problems of the world, but it is an interesting topic of discussion nonetheless

 

[hovis]

As I said. Look on the government website as all companies with over 250 employees have to report. It is a little blunt but take the median figure - doesn't take long to find those with a pay gap. Google it - many independent economic reports and I've yet to find one that says it doesn't exist. Maybe you are blinkered due to your own circumstances but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist for plenty of others.

I'm not for one second saying it doesn't happen. I just haven't seen a valid example. Government figures only show people in position. It doesn't show how many women are applying for these jobs. You can't simply say 9 out of 10 directors at this company are men therefore there's inequality. Are you going to ask for equality for women to lay bricks too or are we just cherry picking the best, most lucrative positions? I've never seen advert saying "women can drill for oil too". Are you wanting to equalise that area too?

There has been massive traction in equality in the last ten years. Personally I think it will equalise itself out when these young women make their way up the ladder.
We live in a time when people want it and they want it now. You can't get to the position of ceo overnight

I have an 8 year old daughter and I certainly hope by the time she gets to work this subject isn't even a discussion

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Oh - I assumed your Avatar was just a recent picture of you and you chose your nickname due to your uncanny resemblance to Game of Thrones finest - I will now erase my mental picture of you.

I'm sorry to ruin the thought

 

[AmandaJR]

Highlight were someone says it does not exist please? The only areas where I have read this is where is seems unlikely that companies very specifically pay females less than males. I'm not saying there is not a handful of sexist pig employers out there, but in general this sort of company policy would get absolutely torn to pieces if the lawyers got involved.

As I finished in my last post, I have highlighted that society was a very different place decades ago compared to today. However, even if we have managed to now produce perfect equality of opportunity to kids starting their careers, we wouldn't get the overall results across the entire working population for decades. Unless you propose sacking / demoting all males approaching retirement, and replacing them with women of the same age? I certainly wouldn't be surprised if the pay difference is much greater to those in their later years, and I'd like to think the difference is less between young male and females. I don't know the figures, so I am only hypothesising this may be the case.

Hopefully you'll agree that the following statement does absolutely nothing to explain exactly why this is happening, let alone offer any sort of solution: "Decades of inequality. It can’t be left to naturally even itself out, that would take hundreds of years. Action is needed to accelerate progress."

I know this is not the place where we will solve the problems of the world, but it is an interesting topic of discussion nonetheless

I'd like to think, in our western society, that the sex of a person is not actually a real barrier to getting a job. At least in 99% of cases, ruling out the odd bad case of sexism.

 

[hovis]

I'd like to think, in our western society, that the sex of a person is not actually a real barrier to getting a job. At least in 99% of cases, ruling out the odd bad case of sexism.

Wouldn't that be 100% then ?‍
Amanda, you're e reading something that's not there

 

[AmandaJR]

Wouldn't that be 100% then ?‍
Amanda, you're e reading something that's not there

Well I'm confused then. I read that as gender not being a barrier to getting a job - as in women aren't discriminated against apart from the occasional 1% odd case.

 

[Swango1980]

I'd like to think, in our western society, that the sex of a person is not actually a real barrier to getting a job. At least in 99% of cases, ruling out the odd bad case of sexism.

That is not dismissing the pay gap though. This comment did not say "women and men, in general, get paid exactly the same". It is clear that men get paid more than females from the figures quoted.

The context of that comment seems pretty clear. It is saying that, when applying for a job in today's society, the sex of the person should not make a difference. That comment seems completely logical. It makes no statement on how many women and men apply for different jobs of different pay grades, nor does it make any statement about people that have already been in work for many years, and initially got on the job ladder when that statement was not true, and men were favoured over women.

 

[AmandaJR]

Are you a politician

 

[hovis]

Well I'm confused then. I read that as gender not being a barrier to getting a job - as in women aren't discriminated against apart from the occasional 1% odd case.

How many organisations that employ people are there in the UK? 1% of them would still be thousands even tens of thousands of discriminated women. That's enough to get headlines and get peoples attention. They'll soon change their tune when they're slapped with substantial fines and penalties

 

[Neilds]

That is not dismissing the pay gap though. This comment did not say "women and men, in general, get paid exactly the same". It is clear that men get paid more than females from the figures quoted.

The context of that comment seems pretty clear. It is saying that, when applying for a job in today's society, the sex of the person should not make a difference. That comment seems completely logical. It makes no statement on how many women and men apply for different jobs of different pay grades, nor does it make any statement about people that have already been in work for many years, and initially got on the job ladder when that statement was not true, and men were favoured over women.

But the study does not say they are doing the same job at the same level. There are more men at higher levels which means their pay skews the figures

 

[Swango1980]

But the study does not say they are doing the same job at the same level. There are more men at higher levels which means their pay skews the figures

Exactly, hence my next paragraph were I say the statement says nothing about how many men and women apply do different jobs of different pay levels.

 

[PNWokingham]

my wife (new improved one) is a prime example. She raised 3 kids under 3 from the late 90s and never worked after the first, thus sacrificing her career. After divorce, she volunteered and then managed the local Salvation Army. She now works in Tennancy Sustainment at the council. Her career is essentially 3 to 4 years old at 51 years old. She loves her job, helps a lot of people keep a roof over their heads and maximise benefits, and spent 6 months helping Ukrainians. I would love to see her progress up the ladder and further her career but she doesn't want to - loves her job and not interested in the politics and hassle of moving higher. There are many women who are in similar positions, looking after the kids or doing part time etc - so the number of career men is always (probably anyway) going to be higher than women, hence the median income of men will be higher. This is a completely different issue than ensuring that any job at any company should be open to all applicants and that HR departments and managers need to ensure no racial, sexual or religious discrimination - and in 30 years i have never witnessed any of these discriminations - although they have undoubtedly happened but hopefully less and less over the past few years. Positive discrimination is just as bad as other forms of discrimination and i hope we never go down that route - look at the disaster South Africa has made of this policy that has increased corruption and driven the educated young abroad

 

[BrianM]

My wife earns slightly more than double than me, and I feel I’ve got a good number ??
She has a few male personnel below her and reporting to her, they are all older as well.
But she’s a workaholic and deserves every penny in my opinion.
We have a 3 and 12 year old in the mix and I work away, so loads going on all the time.

 

[SocketRocket]

Who's guessing or making cheap assumptions. Ethnic minorities make up a tiny percent of golf club members and you expect that to be different on a dedicated golf forum ? Sure I could have said male privilege but either way I'm not wrong.

What percentage of the population are ethnic minorities (there's a clue in the term)

 

[theoneandonly]

What percentage of the population are ethnic minorities (there's a clue in the term)

What's your point?

 

[rudebhoy]

My last 2 employers were large multinationals where disclosing your salary was a disciplinary offence. However I was involved in salary decisions on an annual basis, so had sight of what everyone who worked for me was paid. I did this for 15 years, must have had 200-odd folk working for me over that period, and it was noticeable that women were routinely paid 20%-30% less than men doing the same job.

A lot of this came from their starting salary, there was an obvious bias at play year after year when it came to recruitment.