Salary inequalities

[rudebhoy]

I had no involvement or influence with the teams who were hiring people. Again it was not as simple as the differences being across the board. Job offers would be pitched at the lowest level they thought people would accept. Some blokes were also on terrible money compared to others.

There were no automatic annual rises, no union, and budgets for pay rises were pretty meagre most of the time.

 

[SocketRocket]

There were some high profile cases recently with Asda and some local authorities.

Discriminating because of gender is illegal, but in a lot of industries it is difficult to produce the level of proof required to support a court case or employment tribunal. It’s not as simple as men being paid x and women being paid y, some men will be paid more than others, same with women. But female pay is generally lower than for men.

Is it really! I would imagine some women are paid better than men if the reward is performance based, as bonus payments should be. The largest bonus payment I awarded was to a female employee who wasn't on a particularly high grade but put in a fantastic effort one year.

Is the comment you made in bold a gut feeling or something backed by empirical data? TBH I'm not sure if men do actually earn more than women, maybe they do but it needs more that poor comparisons and gut feelings to prove it.

 

[rudebhoy]

Is it really! I would imagine some women are paid better than men if the reward is performance based, as bonus payments should be. The largest bonus payment I awarded was to a female employee who wasn't on a particularly high grade but put in a fantastic effort one year.

Is the comment you made in bold a gut feeling or something backed by empirical data? TBH I'm not sure if men do actually earn more than women, maybe they do but it needs more that poor comparisons and gut feelings to prove it.

Feels like we are going round in circles here. Surely you can’t have missed the ONS report? Don’t think that was based on their gut feeling.

 

[Neilds]

Feels like we are going round in circles here. Surely you can’t have missed the ONS report? Don’t think that was based on their gut feeling.

The ONS report is average pay per job, not salary inequalities for the same job.
I think that certain people are using the headline the same way as the Daily Mail does to fit their own agenda

 

[rudebhoy]

The ONS report is average pay per job, not salary inequalities for the same job.
I think that certain people are using the headline the same way as the Daily Mail does to fit their own agenda

Sorry, if you look at the report, you can drill down on job types and see the gender gap for each role

For example

Bus and Coach Drivers
Women earn 5.2% less than men
Women earn £11.89 per hour
Men earn £12.54 per hour

Clinical Psychologists
Women earn 14.1% less than men
Women earn £23.51 per hour
Men earn £27.38 per hour

All companies with more than 250 employees are obliged to provide this data, I don’t see how you can argue this doesn’t highlight salary inequality (aka the gender gap)?

 

[SocketRocket]

Sorry, if you look at the report, you can drill down on job types and see the gender gap for each role

For example

Bus and Coach Drivers
Women earn 5.2% less than men
Women earn £11.89 per hour
Men earn £12.54 per hour

Clinical Psychologists
Women earn 14.1% less than men
Women earn £23.51 per hour
Men earn £27.38 per hour

All companies with more than 250 employees are obliged to provide this data, I don’t see how you can argue this doesn’t highlight salary inequality (aka the gender gap)?

Those stats are median. They put people in a line based on their salaries, highest at one side and lowest on the other. They then take the person in the middle of the line and use their salary as the median.
So if we have one line with men and another with women and take the two in the middle and the man's salary is higher than the woman's does this indicate that the man is being paid more for the same job taking into account all variables. I would suggest not.

This type of comparison is a blunt instrument as there are a myriad of things that could create an uneven playing field. Length of service, continuous service, performance bonuses, responsibilities, ability and so on and so forth.

This type of report is used as it's a simple way to create a number as it's almost impossible to create a 100% accurate comparison between men and women's pay. I would guess if you looked at the pay grades from a selection of professions like Doctors, Nurses, Police, Firefighters, Carers, Design Engineers, Postpersons (is that right) etc the pay scales would be common across gender.

 

[Banchory Buddha]

Sorry, if you look at the report, you can drill down on job types and see the gender gap for each role

For example

Bus and Coach Drivers
Women earn 5.2% less than men
Women earn £11.89 per hour
Men earn £12.54 per hour

Clinical Psychologists
Women earn 14.1% less than men
Women earn £23.51 per hour
Men earn £27.38 per hour

All companies with more than 250 employees are obliged to provide this data, I don’t see how you can argue this doesn’t highlight salary inequality (aka the gender gap)?

Sorry that proves nothing. It is a fact that women are the ones on maternity leave, and do the majority of childcare, ths has the negative effect of them doing less time in their job, which can mean they don;t progress at the same rate as a male counterpart

If you were able to drill down, this would account for a large part of the discrepancy

 

[sunshine]

Where's the banging your head against a brick wall emoji?

 

[theoneandonly]

Where's the banging your head against a brick wall emoji?

I despair at some of the replies.

 

[BrianM]

I’ve primarily worked in a male environment, oil and gas and now wind industry.
My thoughts are a job should always be given on ability, I couldn’t care less if you are a woman, black, gay or something else, I’d always hire on being the right person for the job (fit in your team) and pay accordingly.

 

[Swango1980]

I despair at some of the replies.

Well, perhaps you shouldn't talk about it in a forum full of, as you say, "white privileged men". After all, you've already invalidated their opinions based on the group they belong to. Unless they say "men get paid more than women, purely because men discriminate against women", you have already decided any other contribution made is not worth listening to.

You could find another website, with a different demographic, and find more of the answers you are seeking (i.e. the answers you know you want to hear). You will no longer need to despair, as you can all point towards men being the problem and be happy you are with like minded people.

Either way, whether you are in this forum, or another forum, you are unlikely to make a jot of difference to reality. Society will no doubt change over time, as there will be some people out there that are not actually afraid to objectively look at the issue, and then break down the reasons for the differences we currently see. Knowing the issues, they will then be able to address these issues sensibly, where possible. Discrimination is probably the easiest issue to solve (not easy, but easier than the rest), and it would be naïve to think the level of discrimination now is exactly the same as 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, etc years ago. If men and women make different career choices (job type, work hours including part-time / full-time) that is more difficult to solve. You can ask the question why men and women generally make different choices, but you can't force women to work in higher paid jobs / do more hours or force men to do lower paid jobs / work less hours, until we get a perfect balance. You can only try and remove discrimination, and give men and women an equal opportunity to do what they want to do / able to do.

 

[theoneandonly]

Well, perhaps you shouldn't talk about it in a forum full of, as you say, "white privileged men". After all, you've already invalidated their opinions based on the group they belong to. Unless they say "men get paid more than women, purely because men discriminate against women", you have already decided any other contribution made is not worth listening to.

You could find another website, with a different demographic, and find more of the answers you are seeking (i.e. the answers you know you want to hear). You will no longer need to despair, as you can all point towards men being the problem and be happy you are with like minded people.

Either way, whether you are in this forum, or another forum, you are unlikely to make a jot of difference to reality. Society will no doubt change over time, as there will be some people out there that are not actually afraid to objectively look at the issue, and then break down the reasons for the differences we currently see. Knowing the issues, they will then be able to address these issues sensibly, where possible. Discrimination is probably the easiest issue to solve (not easy, but easier than the rest), and it would be naïve to think the level of discrimination now is exactly the same as 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, etc years ago. If men and women make different career choices (job type, work hours including part-time / full-time) that is more difficult to solve. You can ask the question why men and women generally make different choices, but you can't force women to work in higher paid jobs / do more hours or force men to do lower paid jobs / work less hours, until we get a perfect balance. You can only try and remove discrimination, and give men and women an equal opportunity to do what they want to do / able to do.

Like I said. Despair.
Perhaps you'd like to find a forum that enjoys your brand of pseudo intellectual nonsense.

 

[Swango1980]

Like I said. Despair.
Perhaps you'd like to find a forum that enjoys your brand of pseudo intellectual nonsense.

Actually, there seem to be plenty in here that seem to be intellectual enough to have a grown up conversation, so I'm OK in this forum. I'm not the one in despair, so why do I need to leave?

 

[rudebhoy]

Well, perhaps you shouldn't talk about it in a forum full of, as you say, "white privileged men". After all, you've already invalidated their opinions based on the group they belong to. Unless they say "men get paid more than women, purely because men discriminate against women", you have already decided any other contribution made is not worth listening to.

You could find another website, with a different demographic, and find more of the answers you are seeking (i.e. the answers you know you want to hear). You will no longer need to despair, as you can all point towards men being the problem and be happy you are with like minded people.

Either way, whether you are in this forum, or another forum, you are unlikely to make a jot of difference to reality. Society will no doubt change over time, as there will be some people out there that are not actually afraid to objectively look at the issue, and then break down the reasons for the differences we currently see. Knowing the issues, they will then be able to address these issues sensibly, where possible. Discrimination is probably the easiest issue to solve (not easy, but easier than the rest), and it would be naïve to think the level of discrimination now is exactly the same as 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, etc years ago. If men and women make different career choices (job type, work hours including part-time / full-time) that is more difficult to solve. You can ask the question why men and women generally make different choices, but you can't force women to work in higher paid jobs / do more hours or force men to do lower paid jobs / work less hours, until we get a perfect balance. You can only try and remove discrimination, and give men and women an equal opportunity to do what they want to do / able to do.

if you look at the ONS report, you will se that the gender gap is calculated on hourly rate of pay, not total salary, so the number of hours worked is not a factor.