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Salary inequalities

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I will always take studies with a pinch of salt you can always get them to say what you want. Is this saying that women get paid 42% less then men or is it women get paid 42% less than men for doing the "exact same" job. The two are very different. That's what these studies seem to leave out. If you can prove to a tribunal that you are doing the same job with the same amount of time served the employers feet wouldn't touch the floor

I have to go from my own experience and say that I don't see any gap at all. My wife works as a financial controller and she gets paid more than all of her male counterparts because she works harder (they have performance based payrises on top of inflation)

I have no doubt that it exists but if it where such an issue why don't all these big companies employ solely women? You could apparently (according to this thread) save 41% on wages overnight
 
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hovis said:
I will always take studies with a pinch of salt you can always get them to say what you want. Is this saying that women get paid 42% less then men or is it women get paid 42% less than men for doing the "exact same" job. The two are very different. That's what these studies seem to leave out. If you can prove to a tribunal that you are doing the same job with the same amount of time served the employers feet wouldn't touch the floor

I have to go from my own experience and say that I don't see any gap at all. My wife works as a financial controller and she gets paid more than all of her male counterparts because she works harder (they have performance based payrises on top of inflation)

I have no doubt that it exists but if it where such an issue why don't all these big companies employ solely women? You could apparently (according to this thread) save 41% on wages overnight
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agree totally. I have never seen any gender pay issues in any companies i have worked for.

No doubt the overall earnings of men in totality is higher, simply for the fact that many women either don't work, take career breaks or part time, but where they do work i suspect there are not too many companies that would or could discriminate on gender and many roles have fixed bands for the job. I recruited probably 20 people in my last company and gender pay was never an issue and never even discussed and we never even thought of it when offering jobs.
 
hovis said:
I will always take studies with a pinch of salt you can always get them to say what you want. Is this saying that women get paid 42% less then men or is it women get paid 42% less than men for doing the "exact same" job. The two are very different. That's what these studies seem to leave out. If you can prove to a tribunal that you are doing the same job with the same amount of time served the employers feet wouldn't touch the floor

I have to go from my own experience and say that I don't see any gap at all. My wife works as a financial controller and she gets paid more than all of her male counterparts because she works harder (they have performance based payrises on top of inflation)

I have no doubt that it exists but if it where such an issue why don't all these big companies employ solely women? You could apparently (according to this thread) save 41% on wages overnight
Click to expand...
I see what you were saying, although I'd expand it a bit. I don't necessarily take the study with a pinch of salt, but I may take the soundbite conclusions with a pinch of salt, as they may be taken completely out of context. Simply saying men get paid more than women, will send a message to many that employers are simply giving more money to people if they are a man, purely because they are a man. Yet, as you say, the study is more likely showing that men are in higher paying jobs, which leads to all sorts of questions. Is it because employers prefer men or is it because more men tend to apply for these types of jobs. Why do these types of jobs attract more money, compared to jobs you find a higher proportion of females.

There are lots of questions to ask. However, when people simply shout "men get paid more than women, it is scandalous", then I really do not know where you go from there. If people are not prepared to look at the details behind it all, then I'd like those people to tell us what the solution is that will ensure men and women get paid exactly the same, across society as a whole.
 
theoneandonly said:
Never has white male privilege been displayed more than in this thread ?
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Uhh?

I mean, we are living in a predominantly white country, and in these golfing forums the users are predominantly male. Thankfully, we live in a society were we are privileged enough to be able to express our opinions. I've no issue if people want to criticise our opinions, if they are bad or misguided opinions. However, if our opinions are criticised simply because we are white males, then it basically means we are not really in a position to express our opinions again. I can't really change the fact (realistically) that I am white or a male. I can't change the fact where I was born, or the economic position of my family (which I'd say was pretty average compared to others in the UK, but astronomically high compared to the poorest people globally).

All opinions are welcome, whoever you are, race, gender or economic position. We all agree males get paid more than women generally. We've then gone on to try and go into more details of why that might be. Nobody has told us the solution (I don't think), and I'd imagine the answer would be incredibly complicated, and not as simple as some might like?
 
Swango1980 said:
I see what you were saying, although I'd expand it a bit. I don't necessarily take the study with a pinch of salt, but I may take the soundbite conclusions with a pinch of salt, as they may be taken completely out of context. Simply saying men get paid more than women, will send a message to many that employers are simply giving more money to people if they are a man, purely because they are a man. Yet, as you say, the study is more likely showing that men are in higher paying jobs, which leads to all sorts of questions. Is it because employers prefer men or is it because more men tend to apply for these types of jobs. Why do these types of jobs attract more money, compared to jobs you find a higher proportion of females.

There are lots of questions to ask. However, when people simply shout "men get paid more than women, it is scandalous", then I really do not know where you go from there. If people are not prepared to look at the details behind it all, then I'd like those people to tell us what the solution is that will ensure men and women get paid exactly the same, across society as a whole.
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OK. I'll like to delete my post and say the above. Sounds much better than mine ?
 
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theoneandonly said:
I assume this is a joke? It's fair to assume that the demographic of this forum is not dissimilar to your average golf club and prey tell who mostly frequents those ?

And also it's not hard to find a picture ??

https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/golf-monthly-forum-help-for-heroes-fundraiser-2022
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No joke, it's a cheap assumption. I don't know what colour you are, or any other posters, unless it shows on their Avatar. It's irrelevant.

You can make the comment about being largely male, true, but the rest is guesswork and unnecessary
 
Lord Tyrion said:
No joke, it's a cheap assumption. I don't know what colour you are, or any other posters, unless it shows on their Avatar. It's irrelevant.

You can make the comment about being largely male, true, but the rest is guesswork and unnecessary
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Oh - I assumed your Avatar was just a recent picture of you and you chose your nickname due to your uncanny resemblance to Game of Thrones finest - I will now erase my mental picture of you.
 
Lord Tyrion said:
No joke, it's a cheap assumption. I don't know what colour you are, or any other posters, unless it shows on their Avatar. It's irrelevant.

You can make the comment about being largely male, true, but the rest is guesswork and unnecessary
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Who's guessing or making cheap assumptions. Ethnic minorities make up a tiny percent of golf club members and you expect that to be different on a dedicated golf forum ? Sure I could have said male privilege but either way I'm not wrong.
 
theoneandonly said:
Race ? Ok male privilege then, but watching men fall over themselves to downplay discrimination against women would be funny if it wasnt so sad.
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What is even sadder, is that when people try to have a serious discussion as to why these things happen (and certainly don't disagree that there is a difference in pay between men and woman), is that others manage to interpret that as "there is no discrimination between men and woman". It would be funny, but it is really really sad :)

But, so far, your contribution to this topic has been zero. You've not tried to explain the reasonings behind it, or solutions. You've simply pointed at the finger to those trying to have a say, and accused them of being white, male and privileged. What use is that? Is there a specific answer you are looking for, where suddenly you wouldn't accuse a privileged white male of being white, male and privileged, or regardless of response, you will always make that accusation towards them?

However, if it turns out your contribution is a good one, I may take a leaf out of your book, and go to all the threads where it applies, and use the same line. Watch out for those on the Women's Euro Football thread, I am about to dismiss all your opinions because of what you are :)
 
Neilds said:
All these studies need to be clear what they are actually comparing. People on the same grade, doing the same work should be paid the same regardless of gender. However, just taking what all the males earn and comparing it to what all the females earn is probably incorrect as there are likely to be more males in top positions, therefore distorting the figures.
Take the military for example, a male Cpl Engineer will earn the same as a female Cpl Engineer (if they have the same career length and time in rank) but if you took the overall earnings of males in the military then the average wage would be much higher than the average females wages as the top brass is (almost) exclusively male. This is a totally separate discussion that I don't wish to start.
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Why is the top brass exclusively male? Same for almost every industry. Decades of inequality. It can’t be left to naturally even itself out, that would take hundreds of years. Action is needed to accelerate progress.
 
sunshine said:
Why is the top brass exclusively male? Same for almost every industry. Decades of inequality. It can’t be left to naturally even itself out, that would take hundreds of years. Action is needed to accelerate progress.
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I agree with the inequality - if I am allowed to comment as a white male but there are many complex reasons, none that can be solved quickly or easily. The main reason is the simple fact that the military contains more males than females so it stands to reason that the proportion of males at the top will be higher once you factor in people leaving for various reasons - 1 of which was until the end of the 90s women had to leave the military when they became pregnant.
 
sunshine said:
Why is the top brass exclusively male? Same for almost every industry. Decades of inequality. It can’t be left to naturally even itself out, that would take hundreds of years. Action is needed to accelerate progress.
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I don't know exactly

How many women apply for these jobs compared to men? Is it equal, or do significantly more men apply for these jobs. If few women apply for these jobs, why? Is it through choice, or are there barriers? If there are barriers, what are they. Are they less well educated, or do they not apply due to a feeling of not being wanted? In Sweden, where they have gone gone towards providing a society that gives the best equality of opportunity, why has the outcome provide larger differences between men and woman (as I have read reported)?

I think we all agree that, if there is a top job going and the employer is favouring males over females, simply because of sex, that is entirely wrong. So, if the applicants are 50/50, I'd expect the jobs to be given out at that sort of rate as well. Also, if there are jobs with definitive pay scales, then I'd expect them to remain the same regardless of sex. If they didn't, I'd imagine the company would not avoid legal action.

Of course, there is the other reasons that, going back a few decades, society had an expectation that men go to work, women stay at home, in general. I am sure that still has an impact in today's figures? Some of the top men in industry will be approaching retirement, and will have started their careers when that was the attitude in society. Likewise, many females of the same age may never have worked, or done lower paid jobs, less hours (part time), etc and so never had decades to climb a ladder. However, the attitudes in todays society are very different. I don't believe young girls are told they are expected to be stay at home mothers and young boys the bread winners. I think that attitide started to significantly change 20/30 years ago (trying to think back when I was at school in 90's), and I know attitudes continue to change. So, maybe if we give it another 20-40 years, we'll find extremely different figures in the pay gap comparison? When all those that started working decades ago have long retired, and the young of today have had the chance to climb the ladder to the high pay positions. It would be interesting to see what the gender pay gap will be then. Will it close, increase, stay the same? Could we get to a point were we actually see women getting paid more than men in general?
 
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