Ruling not best practise please

[IslaG]

When model local rule E3 Preferred lies is in place and reads ' lift, clean and place within 30cms' am I correct that there is no actual requirement to mark the ball before lifting – obviously it is best practise – but no penalty if you don’t. You are not replacing the ball on a specific spot so use the procedures for replacing a ball under 14.2b(2) and 14.2e. If the rule was lift, clean and replace that would then require the ball to be marked. Yes?

 

[chrisd]

That's my understanding 100%

 

[bobmac]

I would never lift my ball without marking its position.
How else are you going to know that you have replaced it correctly and not nearer the hole.
It may not be a rule, but in my head it is, especially when dropping club lengths away.

 

[IslaG]

Because if I’m moving it 5cm to sit up on a nicer tuft I’ll know I acknowledged it was best practice but my question was whether not marking incurred a penalty- and it doesn’t

 

[Colin L]

When model local rule E3 Preferred lies is in place and reads ' lift, clean and place within 30cms' am I correct that there is no actual requirement to mark the ball before lifting – obviously it is best practise – but no penalty if you don’t. You are not replacing the ball on a specific spot so use the procedures for replacing a ball under 14.2b(2) and 14.2e. If the rule was lift, clean and replace that would then require the ball to be marked. Yes?

That's all correct - a 2019 change from the previous local rule . It is is consistent with Rule 14.1a which states,

Before lifting a ball under a Rule requiring the ball to be replaced on its original spot, the player must mark the spot ........
.......When a ball is lifted to take relief under a Rule, the player is not required to mark the spot before lifting the ball.

Preferred lies is a relief rule and does not require replacing your ball. Lift clean and replace, as it says, requires you to replace and so you must mark before lifting.

 

[Maninblack4612]

I would never lift my ball without marking its position.
How else are you going to know that you have replaced it correctly and not nearer the hole.
It may not be a rule, but in my head it is, especially when dropping club lengths away.

If I'm lifting it up a few inches, giving it a quick wipe with my fingers & replacing it a couple of inches away I wouldn't bother marking it.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

If I'm lifting it up a few inches, giving it a quick wipe with my fingers & replacing it a couple of inches away I wouldn't bother marking it.

^^ This. If I have to take it across to my bag to clean with a towel then I mark, if it is a quick clean with fingers or on the grass then I don't bother. Keeps the game moving along without a deal of fuss.

 

[theoneandonly]

^^ This. If I have to take it across to my bag to clean with a towel then I mark, if it is a quick clean with fingers or on the grass then I don't bother. Keeps the game moving along without a deal of fuss.

Not even then for me, there is no need to mark so why bother?

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Not even then for me, there is no need to mark so why bother?

Simply that if I am walking away from the spot then I really am taking my eye off it so better to cover myself and make sure that I return the ball within the 6" that it is supposed to go. It is a precautionary move.

 

[Swango1980]

Not even then for me, there is no need to mark so why bother?

Because, if you are leaving the spot entirely to clean the ball, then it would be extremely easy to not know where the ball was originally when you return to place the ball. If you were challenged, it would be difficult to justify how you knew where the original spot was. If you did this frequently, you risk someone keeping a close eye on you, and raising it with the Committee if they genuinely think you are placing the ball incorrectly. It only takes once, where you make a serious error of judgment, and you could be playing from a very different position (i.e. closer to the hole, or much further from the original spot than is permitted.

So, to avoid your own human error and maintaining your integrity, it is a great idea to mark the ball before walking away to clean the ball. However, as others have said, if you are simply lifting the ball up to immediately place on a nice tuft of grass an inch or 2 away, then you can rule out human error, as you will have not lost sight of the original spot in the process.

 

[Foxholer]

Not even then for me, there is no need to mark so why bother?

Because it makes sense to do so, even if not a requirement.

 

[theoneandonly]

Because, if you are leaving the spot entirely to clean the ball, then it would be extremely easy to not know where the ball was originally when you return to place the ball. If you were challenged, it would be difficult to justify how you knew where the original spot was. If you did this frequently, you risk someone keeping a close eye on you, and raising it with the Committee if they genuinely think you are placing the ball incorrectly. It only takes once, where you make a serious error of judgment, and you could be playing from a very different position (i.e. closer to the hole, or much further from the original spot than is permitted.

So, to avoid your own human error and maintaining your integrity, it is a great idea to mark the ball before walking away to clean the ball. However, as others have said, if you are simply lifting the ball up to immediately place on a nice tuft of grass an inch or 2 away, then you can rule out human error, as you will have not lost sight of the original spot in the process.

What human error? I am 100% certain I can place my ball correctly at all times. Thats what matters, not that I follow some non existent rule.

I know what the rule is so wouldn't give someone a second glance who doesnt mark before picking up and cleaning their ball, you talk of integrity and thats exactly correct. I've no reason to doubt anyone untill I do.

 

[PhilTheFragger]

What human error? I am 100% certain I can place my ball correctly at all times. Thats what matters, not that I follow some non existent rule.

I know what the rule is so wouldn't give someone a second glance who doesnt mark before picking up and cleaning their ball, you talk of integrity and thats exactly correct. I've no reason to doubt anyone untill I do.

Ok but what about this scenario

You approach your ball, looks a bit wet/ grassy, so you don’t bother to mark it, just pick it up intending to give it a quick wipe and immediately replace it.

Then you notice a lump of mud the size of wales on the ball and walk a couple of yards to your bag to use the towel,

Oops how do you know where to replace the ball, as your eyes have gone off the spot.

I always mark my ball,

 

[Swango1980]

What human error? I am 100% certain I can place my ball correctly at all times. Thats what matters, not that I follow some non existent rule.

I know what the rule is so wouldn't give someone a second glance who doesnt mark before picking up and cleaning their ball, you talk of integrity and thats exactly correct. I've no reason to doubt anyone untill I do.

As Phil says, the human error of NOT knowing where the original spot was. Once you have left the area, how can you know exactly where that spot was when you return? Maybe you remembered a particular patch on the ground, however in most cases there'll be patches everywhere, so how would you know exactly where the ball was sitting to begin with? You might have some special abilities, but from my own perspective I can guarantee I wouldn't be able to pinpoint the original spot in most, if not all cases after leaving the area. In most cases you wouldn't, you'd just be guessing.

So, if you don't mark it, you are just guessing. Unless you walk to your bag, keeping your eyes fixated on the original sport at all times?

 

[theoneandonly]

Ok but what about this scenario

You approach your ball, looks a bit wet/ grassy, so you don’t bother to mark it, just pick it up intending to give it a quick wipe and immediately replace it.

Then you notice a lump of mud the size of wales on the ball and walk a couple of yards to your bag to use the towel,

Oops how do you know where to replace the ball, as your eyes have gone off the spot.

I always mark my ball,

Thats OK as it doesn't have to go back on the same spot so it matters not that your eyes have gone off the spot., just to a place as defined by the local rule.

 

[Swango1980]

Thats OK as it doesn't have to go back on the same spot so it matters not that your eyes have gone off the spot., just to a place as defined by the local rule.

If you do not know the original spot, how do you know where the relief area is???

 

[theoneandonly]

As Phil says, the human error of NOT knowing where the original spot was. Once you have left the area, how can you know exactly where that spot was when you return? Maybe you remembered a particular patch on the ground, however in most cases there'll be patches everywhere, so how would you know exactly where the ball was sitting to begin with? You might have some special abilities, but from my own perspective I can guarantee I wouldn't be able to pinpoint the original spot in most, if not all cases after leaving the area. In most cases you wouldn't, you'd just be guessing.

So, if you don't mark it, you are just guessing. Unless you walk to your bag, keeping your eyes fixated on the original sport at all times?

As per @PhilTheFragger I dont get this fixation with the original spot, you don't need to put it there.

If you need to mark it, be my guest, just don't try and force it on others.

 

[theoneandonly]

If you do not know the original spot, how do you know where the relief area is???

Can you show me the rule saying I must mark my ball when I am picking and placing?

 

[Swango1980]

Can you show me the rule saying I must mark my ball when I am picking and placing?

That has already been established, and the reasoning behind it explained.

Can you point me to the rule that says you do not need to know your original spot when identifying your relief area?

 

[rulefan]

I dont get this fixation with the original spot, you don't need to put it there.

If you don't know the original spot how do you know you have placed it within 6" of that spot?