Rules help

[Fyldewhite]

Player plays from bunker and leaves ball in same bunker. He then uses his club to smooth the sand where he just played from. Rule 13-4 states that it is OK to smooth or rake the sand but says it is a panalty to touch the sand with club. My thoughts are that this is a penalty and I'm sure there is a decision somewhere that covers it but there were differing viewpoints in the club last night so would like to get a definitive ruling.

On that subject the R&A website seems to have ditched the excellent rules and decisions application for a new look rules section. I now can't find the decisions on there....am I missing something or is it just a ploy to sell more books ??

 

[Robobum]

No penalty Fylde.

I don't think the rules make any reference to what is used to "smooth" the sand so a club is permissable. "Excessive smoothing" with the club may breach the exception and could be construed as testing the surface.

The decisions now pop up for each individual rule on the right hand side of the screen. Although it was handy to read through the entire decisions book, it is a quick reference to the relevant rule now.

 

[Twire]

This might help. Look at No2 under exceptions.


13-4 - Ball in Hazard; Prohibited Actions

Except as provided in the Rules, before making a stroke at a ball that is in a hazard (whether a bunker or a water hazard) or that, having been lifted from a hazard, may be dropped or placed in the hazard, the player must not:
a. Test the condition of the hazard or any similar hazard;
b. Touch the ground in the hazard or water in the water hazard with his hand or a club; or
c. Touch or move a loose impediment lying in or touching the hazard.
Exceptions:
1. Provided nothing is done that constitutes testing the condition of the hazard or improves the lie of the ball, there is no penalty if the player (a) touches the ground or loose impediments in any hazard or water in a water hazard as a result of or to prevent falling, in removing an obstruction, in measuring or in marking the position of, retrieving, lifting, placing or replacing a ball under any Rule or (b) places his clubs in a hazard.
2. After making the stroke, if the ball is still in the hazard or has been lifted from the hazard and may be dropped or placed in the hazard, the player may smooth sand or soil in the hazard, provided nothing is done to breach Rule 13-2 with respect to his next stroke. If the ball is outside the hazard after the stroke, the player may smooth sand or soil in the hazard without restriction.
3. If the player makes a stroke from a hazard and the ball comes to rest in another hazard, Rule 13-4a does not apply to any subsequent actions taken in the hazard from which the stroke was made.
Note: At any time, including at address or in the backward movement for the stroke, the player may touch, with a club or otherwise, any obstruction, any construction declared by the Committee to be an integral part of the course or any grass, bush, tree or other growing thing.

 

[freddielong]

This is a big no no it is one of those unfair rules but it is a penalty I am afraid

 

[Robobum]

This is a big no no it is one of those unfair rules but it is a penalty I am afraid

Which part of the rule says it's a penalty Freddie??

 

[viscount17]

I would think this could be construed a penalty (or promote an argument), probably comes under testing the conditions (which when you think about it is pretty stupid as you've just played a shot in the same bunker) but could also be improving lie/stance or why do it.

imo one of those things it's better to avoid. take the second shot then tidy the bunker.

 

[freddielong]

Sorry I think this is a rule that was changed for the last edition of the rules, it does look like its ok now.

 

[bobmac]

take the second shot then tidy the bunker

I submit this idea to the house

 

[Lindyhop67]

Rory Mcilroy came across this rule back in April 2009 at The Masters. After failing to get the ball out of the 18th greenside bunker he kicked the sand (seemingly obviously in frustration) and continued to sign his card without admitting any rule transgression. He was then hauled up before the Augusta committee with the prospect of a tournament DQ looming for signing off his card incorrectly. To quote a newspaper at the time...

Now, in a meeting with the rules officials, he had two options.

One was to admit he had gained an unfair advantage by 'testing the condition' of the sand in the bunker – however, this would have meant instant disqualification as he would have been guilty of signing for a wrong score.

The second was to claim that, far from 'testing' the sand, he was merely 'smoothing' it in an attempt to restore the bunker to its original condition and what looked like an ill-judged swipe was nothing of the sort.

What he could not do was admit to a fit of pique because the rules do not allow for unintentionally disturbing the surface, no matter how frustrated a player is by his own ineptitude.

On this point rested not only his continued participation in golf's most prestigious tournament, but also his integrity in a sport which ostracises players accused of breaching even the most obscure rules.

McIlroy was made to sweat for more than four hours before investigators reached their decision in the early hours of Saturday morning, agreeing he had been simply 'smoothing' the sand and had not tried to gain an unfair advantage.

So, it appears to me that smoothing the sand is ok if you are restoring it to its original condition...probably best to wait until the ball's out though.

 

[Fyldewhite]

Thanks chaps, split opinions here it seems. I still think this is a penalty.

The rule says that you cannot touch the ground with hand or club prior to making a stroke. If the ball is still in the hazard then smoothing the sand with a club seems to breach the rule. Yes, the exception says it's OK to smooth the sand but I don't think this overides the basic rule and therefore you can do this with a rake or your foot but not a club. I'll delve a bit more into the new website.

 

[Robobum]

One of the decisions does cover it, and it is not a penalty.

Decision 13/4,36
"Q, A makes a stroke in a bunker but fails to extricate his ball from the bunker. He smoothes irregularities in the area where the stroke was made. The smoothing does not breach Rule 13-2 with respect to his next stroke. However, his opponent, B claims that the smoothing assisted A in his subsequent play of the hole because it constituted testing the consistency of the sand. Is B right?

A, No. In such circumstances Exception 2 to Rule 13-4 permits smoothing, provided nothing is done to breach Rule 13-2 with respect to the player’s next stroke."

 

[Whereditgo]

No intention of highjacking the OP but;

13-4 - Ball in Hazard; Prohibited Actions

Except as provided in the Rules, before making a stroke at a ball that is in a hazard (whether a bunker or a water hazard) or that, having been lifted from a hazard, may be dropped or placed in the hazard, the player must not:
a. Test the condition of the hazard or any similar hazard;
b. Touch the ground in the hazard or water in the water hazard with his hand or a club; or
c. Touch or move a loose impediment lying in or touching the hazard.
Exceptions:
1. Provided nothing is done that constitutes testing the condition of the hazard or improves the lie of the ball, there is no penalty if the player (a) touches the ground or loose impediments in any hazard or water in a water hazard as a result of or to prevent falling, in removing an obstruction, in measuring or in marking the position of, retrieving, lifting, placing or replacing a ball under any Rule or (b) places his clubs in a hazard.

We have a lateral water hazard on a par 5 that you need to cross when going for the green in 2, get it slightly wrong and the trees will pull the ball down into the hazard, leaving you about 100yds to the green. It's perfectly possible to play the ball and get it on the green from within the hazard, but, often you can't tell whether the ball is resting on mud or rock! If you are not allowed under the above rule to touch the hazard with club or hand how can you guard against a wrecked club or worse wrist!

 

[Fyldewhite]

Yeah, I've just been reading through them but still not convinced. You are making an assumption that because it is OK to smooth the sand (it clearly is) that it is OK to do this with a club. The decisions don't specifically say this is OK and the rule clearly says you can't touch the ground with a club. So I'm not sure that it is a valid assumption.

Decision 35 makes it clear that the "touching the surface with a club" part still applies if the ball is still in there albeit in a different situation.

 

[Robobum]

Decision 0.5 covers testing the surface and specifically mentions smoothing the sand either by rake, club or otherwise. It then refers you back to the exception in 13-4.

Definately no penalty in my opinion (Saying that, I would agree with other posts in that I would have gone and played my 2nd bunker shot before raking the whole lot)

 

[Fyldewhite]

Thanks, I think you've convinced me. It didn't affect the results yesterday so no real harm done but looks like we gave the wrong ruling. Suppose it's easy done, there was no rake in the bunker and he just used his club without thinking.