rule 13-2/22

[williamalex1]

Am I understanding this decision correctly, during your practice swing you knock 1 leaf from a very leafy tree and it does not improve your swing path. As 100s of leaves remain on the tree and still in your swing path, so there is no penalty.

 

[DCB]

The Decision is fairly well written so it depends on what effect that leaf has on the intended swing path for the actual shot..... :lol:

 

[williamalex1]

The Decision is fairly well written so it depends on what effect that leaf has on the intended swing path for the actual shot..... :lol:[/QUOTE What effect would one very small leaf have , compared to say a very large oak tree leaf which would have a effect. Most golfers think if a leaf is dislodged during a practice swing then it is always a penalty . YES or NO

 

[rulefan]

The Decision is fairly well written so it depends on what effect that leaf has on the intended swing path for the actual shot..... :lol:

What effect would one very small leaf have , compared to say a very large oak tree leaf which would have a effect.

Probably very little or none at all

Most golfers think if a leaf is dislodged during a practice swing then it is always a penalty . YES or NO

The short answer is NO.

 

[williamalex1]

Probably very little or none at all



The short answer is NO.

Thank you Rule Fan

 

[Sid Rixon IV]

I must admit I had no idea what this was about.
I do now
http://www.barryrhodes.com/2011/09/knocking-down-leaf-or-leaves-with.html

Cant wait to apply it

 

[rulefan]

I must admit I had no idea what this was about.
I do now
http://www.barryrhodes.com/2011/09/knocking-down-leaf-or-leaves-with.html

Cant wait to apply it

I am very doubtful that 'removing a distraction' and 'potential advantage' are synonymous.

 

[williamalex1]

I must admit I had no idea what this was about.
I do now
http://www.barryrhodes.com/2011/09/knocking-down-leaf-or-leaves-with.html

Cant wait to apply it

Let us know how you get on telling your FCs that its ok to partially de-leaf trees without penalty. :mmm:

 

[chrisd]

If you take a practice swing its likely to be away from where your ball is lying, so it's probably unlikely that you would dislodge anything on your actual swing path

 

[rulefan]

Am I understanding this decision correctly, during your practice swing you knock 1 leaf from a very leafy tree and it does not improve your swing path. As 100s of leaves remain on the tree and still in your swing path, so there is no penalty.

13-2/22 no longer exists of course. It has been replaced by 13-2/0.5 and the relevant wording modified.

 

[Region3]

Most golfers think if a leaf is dislodged during a practice swing then it is always a penalty . YES or NO

Most golfers - in my experience - YES.

Are they wrong? YES

 

[williamalex1]

Most golfers - in my experience - YES.

Are they wrong? YES

Agreed, but when you tell FCs or even try to show them rule book , they never seem to have their reading glasses with them and are not willing to listen .
The main problem is that most rule changes or decisions do not get passed on or highlighted enough to the average golfer..
I've learned that the little extra rules knowledge I've pick up on the forum is not always welcome on the course sad but true .
Only because Rule Fan replied to this thread we now know the change, how many other golfers knew 13-2/22 was extinct and replaced by 13-2/0.5.
Its a true saying " a little knowledge is dangerous. "

 

[chrisd]

I've learned that the little extra rules knowledge I've pick up on the forum is not always welcome on the course sad but true .

Too true in some cases. Add to which I've drawn our club officials to blatant rule transgressions, by them, in setting competition rules and that hasn't gone down well either. Knowing the rules seems worse than actually cheating it appears!

 

[BTatHome]

I must admit I had no idea what this was about.
I do now
http://www.barryrhodes.com/2011/09/knocking-down-leaf-or-leaves-with.html

Cant wait to apply it

what a strange series of events that describes, I do wonder if some artistic license was included when writing it up ... Was the hole really claimed after the player had played from the trees, in which case how did the referee reverse his decision? Surely if the hole wasn't completed then the resulting change of heart from the referee could have made a huge difference to the outcome of the next hole, never mind the match as a whole.

 

[duncan mackie]

Agreed, but when you tell FCs or even try to show them rule book , they never seem to have their reading glasses with them and are not willing to listen .
The main problem is that most rule changes or decisions do not get passed on or highlighted enough to the average golfer..
I've learned that the little extra rules knowledge I've pick up on the forum is not always welcome on the course sad but true .
Only because Rule Fan replied to this thread we now know the change, how many other golfers knew 13-2/22 was extinct and replaced by 13-2/0.5.
Its a true saying " a little knowledge is dangerous. "

1. there hasn't been a rule change - the new decision was a consolidation with no change in the context of 13-2/22
2. leave the reading glasses to the committee (Barry's matchplay with Ref neatly makes it a 'moment' - but generally these things are best refered when you get back and not discussed to a conclusion on the course; it's even worse when people don't raise it when they get in and it crops up a week later in a casual conversation at the bar!)

 

[rulefan]

1. there hasn't been a rule change - the new decision was a consolidation with no change in the context of 13-2/22

The wording of the new decision is significantly expanded in describing what may or may not be a breach.

It even corrects my erroneous quote above re distraction. My current book was in my car so I went back to the old one which was handy. Only when I opened the current one dis I remember how the words differed. One page replacing under a half.

 

[williamalex1]

1. there hasn't been a rule change - the new decision was a consolidation with no change in the context of 13-2/22
2. leave the reading glasses to the committee (Barry's matchplay with Ref neatly makes it a 'moment' - but generally these things are best refered when you get back and not discussed to a conclusion on the course; it's even worse when people don't raise it when they get in and it crops up a week later in a casual conversation at the bar!)

Sorry did I misread post 10.

 

[duncan mackie]

Sorry did I misread post 10.

no idea

however, rulefan and I seem to disagree given post #16.

13-2/22

Q. A player's ball lies near a tree or bush. The player takes a practice swing near his ball and knocks down leaves in the area of his intended swing. Is this a breach of Rule 13-2?

A. The answer depends on whether the area of the intended swing is improved. In some cases, the knocking down of a number of leaves would not improve the area of the intended swing as the player still has to swing through a number of remaining leaves when making his stroke. In such circumstances, there would be no breach of the Rules. In other cases, the knocking down of one leaf might improve the area of the intended swing, in which case there would be a breach of Rule 13-2.

If a player has improved the area of his intended swing by knocking down a leaf or a number of leaves, he cannot avoid penalty under Rule 13-2 by subsequently changing the area of his swing when he actually makes the stroke.

13-2/0.5 (from BR quote rather than the book, which I don't have here, so if this is wrong I apologise to all)

Q.Rule 13-2 prohibits a player from improving certain areas. What does "improve" mean?

A.In the context of Rule 13-2, "improve" means to change for the better so that the player gains a potential advantage with respect to the position or lie of his ball, the area of his intended stance or swing, his line of play or a reasonable extension of that line beyond the hole, or the area in which he is to drop or place a ball. Therefore, merely changing an area protected by Rule 13-2 will not be a breach of Rule 13-2 unless it creates such a potential advantage for the player in his play.

Examples of changes that are unlikely to create such a potential advantage are if a player:

repairs a small pitch-mark on his line of play five yards in front of his ball prior to making a 150-yard approach shot from through the green;
accidentally knocks down several leaves from a tree in his area of intended swing with a practice swing, but there are still so many leaves or branches remaining that the area of intended swing has not been materially affected; or
whose ball lies in thick rough 180 yards from the green, walks forward and pulls strands of grass on his line of play and tosses them in the air to determine the direction of the wind.

Examples of changes that are likely to create such a potential advantage are if a player:

repairs a pitch-mark through the green five yards in front of his ball and on his line of play prior to making a stroke from off the putting green that might be affected by the pitch-mark (e.g., a putt or a low-running shot);
accidentally knocks down a single leaf from a tree in his area of intended swing with a practice swing, but, as this was one of very few leaves that might either interfere with his swing or fall and thereby distract him, the area of intended swing has been materially affected; or
pulls strands of grass from rough a few inches behind his ball to test the wind, but thereby reduces a potential distraction for the player, or resistance to his club, in the area of his intended swing.

The determination as to whether a player has gained a potential advantage from his actions is made by reference to the situation immediately prior to his stroke. If there is a reasonable possibility that the player's action has created a potential advantage, the player is in breach of Rule 13-2. (New)

13-2/0.5 covers a wider range of situations covered by rule 13-2, but incorporates the issue being discussed.

Where's the material difference/change?

 

[williamalex1]

Depends - one small silver birch leaf from hundreds on the tree or one leaf from a palm tree.

 

[duncan mackie]

Depends - one small silver birch leaf from hundreds on the tree or one leaf from a palm tree.

both are referenced in both decisions, and in the same way.