Rolling back the pro game

[Lucifer MorningStar]

Not sure if using the Masters as a prime example of course set up is the best - take away the joke greens and what real protection is there?

But thats why I think it deserves to be used as an example.. They can't narrow the fairways or change the run offs due to its lay out and the expectations of the course. But by having the greens as they are and tucking the pins away, they prove that even just having difficult greens can make the course hard and increase the scoring difficulty.

Its just an example to show it doesn't have to be about being one dimensional and course set up can be many things .

 

[Imurg]

Ball rollback will achieve nothing.
Instead of a wedge, Rory is going to have a 9 iron in his hand
A short hitter will have a 5 iron rather than a 6..
9/10 times the 9 iron will put it closer than the 5 iron just as the wedge will beat the 6 iron.
So what's the point?

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Ball rollback will achieve nothing.
Instead of a wedge, Rory is going to have a 9 iron in his hand
A short hitter will have a 5 iron rather than a 6..
9/10 times the 9 iron will put it closer than the 5 iron just as the wedge will beat the 6 iron.
So what's the point?

Roll it back further so there is a two club difference. That suddenly matters. It also means that they may have to be more circumspect with driver, bunkers may come into play, corners may have to be plotted instead of blasted over. Perhaps how the designer meant it to be played?

 

[IanM]

Exhib A. The DP event in India recently. Bomb and gauge and you missed the cut, unless you found the fairway! Made for a super event.

Joke greens at Augusta? Not in the slightest. They mean you have to drive in the right place to set up an approach, that'll give any chance of getting close. Fairways miles wide and no rough. But you're not making a score from the wrong places. Unless you're a genius!

Make it a putting contest and you get a putting contest.

 

[Orikoru]

Roll it back further so there is a two club difference. That suddenly matters. It also means that they may have to be more circumspect with driver, bunkers may come into play, corners may have to be plotted instead of blasted over. Perhaps how the designer meant it to be played?

But all this talk of roll-back with the ball has suggested that amateurs will be affected as well. So sod that.

 

[Crow]

I don't understand why most club golfers seem to want to make the game easier.

Golf is a hard game and always has been, it's what makes it so addictive.

Ball rollback wouldn't be an issue, it just resets the goalposts so to speak.
Rather than waltzing round a 6,500 yard course in over 4 hours you could get round much quicker on a 5,500 yard course and still play your super forgiving clubs.

Someone made a great video demonstrating how this might work using an 80% ball:

 

[Lucifer MorningStar]

Roll it back further so there is a two club difference. That suddenly matters. It also means that they may have to be more circumspect with driver, bunkers may come into play, corners may have to be plotted instead of blasted over. Perhaps how the designer meant it to be played?

Then you enter the realms of people in the club game suffer, unless you bifurcate the rules. That will then impact the manufacturers because they can't advertise your buying the same as the tour players, knock effect of sponsorships being paid and sales will be huge and so on.. AS for playing the course as the designer intended that horse bolted years ago and pretty much any course over 40 years old at top level isn't played that way even with a 2 club difference. Club I played at last week as an example several holes for that to happen I'd have to hit 6 irons off the tee to corner of dog legs and leave a similar length club in, the days of that being a driver and long iron in around there disappeared with Persimmon drivers and balata balls, the course itself though was still tough as they reduced the sizes of the greens and allowed the rough to creep in at driver length and around the fringes. Greenkeepers and course committees can still make courses hard with just smarter.

But all this talk of roll-back with the ball has suggested that amateurs will be affected as well. So sod that.

That proves my point why should you or others suffer!

I don't understand why most club golfers seem to want to make the game easier.

Golf is a hard game and always has been, it's what makes it so addictive.

Ball rollback wouldn't be an issue, it just resets the goalposts so to speak.
Rather than waltzing round a 6,500 yard course in over 4 hours you could get round much quicker on a 5,500 yard course and still play your super forgiving clubs.

Someone made a great video demonstrating how this might work using an 80% ball:

Because they want to enjoy it more, from what I've seen you enjoy vintage golf so love the older challenge and fair play i have full respect and a lot of time for that but not everybody does or wants to play old golf.

I don't buy the it will be quicker playing by rolling the ball back people still hit wayward shots and its habit forming for people to make the length of course fit their 4hr timings. Hitting a ball less distance doesn't make someone quicker especially the average player, they will still take a similar amount of shots if not more as they're not as accurate with longer clubs meaning more looking for balls or chunking long irons etc.

 

[cookelad]

But thats why I think it deserves to be used as an example.. They can't narrow the fairways or change the run offs due to its lay out and the expectations of the course. But by having the greens as they are and tucking the pins away, they prove that even just having difficult greens can make the course hard and increase the scoring difficulty.

Its just an example to show it doesn't have to be about being one dimensional and course set up can be many things .

And by adding 100+yards every year to the course.

The 1st tee in on the putting green, the 5th tee is on Hooters car park, ok it's not but they literally had to move a road, the 10th is also on the putting green, 11 has been pulled back about 80yard into the trees, the 13th is on another golf course. The 2nd tee is right on the edge of the property now, if they take that any further back they'll be moving the road again, plus all the holes where they're right on the edge of other holes 3, 8, 9, 15 etc.

 

[D-S]

It’s going to be a tough sell to amateurs. After being sold everything that goes further and that distance is all, then the ball manufacturers are going to say our new balls from x date fly x yards less please come and buy them - and we all know they won’t be at a significant discount to all the balls they have sold up to that date, which all do want golfers want i.e. go further.
With the stock of balls in the supply chain, golfer’s bags, sheds, garages, lying around on courses and at the bottom of lakes waiting to be recovered it will be a lengthy switchover.

 

[Lucifer MorningStar]

And by adding 100+yards every year to the course.

The 1st tee in on the putting green, the 5th tee is on Hooters car park, ok it's not but they literally had to move a road, the 10th is also on the putting green, 11 has been pulled back about 80yard into the trees, the 13th is on another golf course. The 2nd tee is right on the edge of the property now, if they take that any further back they'll be moving the road again, plus all the holes where they're right on the edge of other holes 3, 8, 9, 15 etc.

Yet it's still not the distance that affects the scores there its the ability to hit the right area of the green and putt well, so my point still stands !

 

[D-S]

I think any changes to course set up need to be carefully thought through. Pre/Post a visit from the Tour the members/visitors still have to play the course and even with current set ups it affects the AM golfers for several months already by making the course much tougher.
If you start pinching in and growing out fairways right where a sizable group of AM players are landing their 1st & 2nd shots then courses are gonna lose their primary revenue routes

But how many courses host tour events? There are 3,100 courses in the UK, a tiny % will ever host a Tour event.
If this is really an issue then the Tours may have to concentrate their tournaments on fewer courses that can handle this sort of disruption. Also if this is a pain to the members then perhaps they may not want to host events unless the recompense is a lot better than it is now. Many of the courses pay to have events as it helps them boost their status and thereby green fee prices, perhaps this should be reversed - there is seemingly a lot of money in the Pro game, surely some of this can compensate the hosts of their events.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

But all this talk of roll-back with the ball has suggested that amateurs will be affected as well. So sod that.

Just have two different balls, one for pro-tournament play/ elite ams, and one for the rest of us. They can be the same ball, just doctored slightly for the elite. It really isn't that difficult or problematic.

 

[D-S]

Just have two different balls, one for pro-tournament play/ elite ams, and one for the rest of us. They can be the same ball, just doctored slightly for the elite. It really isn't that difficult or problematic.

Yes a very sensible solution, but isn’t this ‘bifurcation’ that the authorities have decided is not acceptable.

 

[Crow]

Because they want to enjoy it more, from what I've seen you enjoy vintage golf so love the older challenge and fair play i have full respect and a lot of time for that but not everybody does or wants to play old golf.

I don't buy the it will be quicker playing by rolling the ball back people still hit wayward shots and its habit forming for people to make the length of course fit their 4hr timings. Hitting a ball less distance doesn't make someone quicker especially the average player, they will still take a similar amount of shots if not more as they're not as accurate with longer clubs meaning more looking for balls or chunking long irons etc.

What's more enjoyable, playing a challenging game or bunting the ball straight down the middle every time?

Nowhere did I mention playing old or vintage golf. Modern gear can be made to be as hard or easy as you want, but luckily the ruling bodies are keeping a lid on the "easier" element or we'd all be driving the ball 400 yards in a perfectly straight line.

So you believe that whatever the length of the course, golfers will adapt their speed to complete the round in 4 hours? What about on a 5,250 yard course? Or a 4,500 yard course?
There would be no need for them to hit more long clubs as the course would be shorter so they'd be hitting the exact same clubs as before.

 

[Orikoru]

Just have two different balls, one for pro-tournament play/ elite ams, and one for the rest of us. They can be the same ball, just doctored slightly for the elite. It really isn't that difficult or problematic.

Yeah, of course, but that is not what they've said will happen. They've said if they change the ball it will change for all of us.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Yes a very sensible solution, but isn’t this ‘bifurcation’ that the authorities have decided is not acceptable.

Yeah, of course, but that is not what they've said will happen. They've said if they change the ball it will change for all of us.

They need to change their mind on that . It's far simpler to alter one thing than alter other equipment or expect courses to keep getting lengthened. Tennis did it with ball compression, not rackets or courts, athletics did it with the javelin. No need to over complicate matters.

 

[Crow]

Yeah, of course, but that is not what they've said will happen. They've said if they change the ball it will change for all of us.

But the proposed ball changed is so pathetic that many of the existing balls we currently play will still be legal, it's just the top-end ProV1s and the like that will be impacted.

And most of us can't hit ProV1s hard enough to generate their full potential anyway so a rolled back ProV1 would be no different to the average golfer.

 

[Lucifer MorningStar]

What's more enjoyable, playing a challenging game or bunting the ball straight down the middle every time?

Nowhere did I mention playing old or vintage golf. Modern gear can be made to be as hard or easy as you want, but luckily the ruling bodies are keeping a lid on the "easier" element or we'd all be driving the ball 400 yards in a perfectly straight line.

So you believe that whatever the length of the course, golfers will adapt their speed to complete the round in 4 hours? What about on a 5,250 yard course? Or a 4,500 yard course?
There would be no need for them to hit more long clubs as the course would be shorter so they'd be hitting the exact same clubs as before.

Thats the age old question for most people it will be hitting straight every time to give them best chance of getting a good score, for many golf is far more enjoyable when playing from the fairway and hitting it well.

I know you didn't mention it, I did and my reason being pertinent because it shows you enjoy the challenge of playing older less forgiving equipment and aren't phased by longer shots or working the ball, that however isn't the same i'd say for the majority of golfers who play the game.. Personally I love the feel of the older clubs and plotting my way round a course but that isn't the modern game or what most people play to enjoy.

Absolutely I believe that and have experienced it, I've had rounds take over 4.5 hours round a course that's just of 5100 yards, it's painful and slow. if your point is it makes no difference they're hitting the same clubs then my point stands it won't make them quicker as they still won't have the ability to control the shot. Using the shorter course example say the average player hits a 7 iron 145 yards, roll the ball back 2 clubs that becomes a 5 iron so the distance doesn't change but the difficulty of club and execution does, they've a far greater change of hitting that 5 iron into a worse spot than on the green, thereby your adding at least a shot or 2 per hole based on the average golfer and slowing the round down. Now do that on every hole and approach it adds up to a lot of minutes so the round does become slower and evens out the length of time to play.

 

[Crow]

Using the shorter course example say the average player hits a 7 iron 145 yards, roll the ball back 2 clubs that becomes a 5 iron so the distance doesn't change but the difficulty of club and execution does, they've a far greater change of hitting that 5 iron into a worse spot than on the green, thereby your adding at least a shot or 2 per hole based on the average golfer and slowing the round down. Now do that on every hole and approach it adds up to a lot of minutes so the round does become slower and evens out the length of time to play.

They are playing a shorter course because the ball doesn't go so far, so the 145 yards you mention will actually be 120 yards on the shorter course and the club is still a 7 iron.

The time saving is not from taking less shots but from not walking 1,000 yards.

Anyway, why am I getting involved in this endless round and round argument again?

I'm out.

 

[WorldHandicapSystem]

Even simpler to just adapt the course set up. Require those responsible to make the fairways narrow and the rough punitive between 300 and 400 yards. Make any hole other than the one they're playing internal OoB.
No need for bifurcation or changing of equipment rules that have a cost implication on the golfing public.

Which will be even more boring as players will just play the same strategy. The big hitters will still have an advantage.