Roll Back Discussion

[Backsticks]

So, from an advertising perspective,

Advertising and reality are more different than chalk and cheese. At least chalk, and cheese, are both real things.

 

[Backsticks]

I think this discussion was about manufacturers not being able to market a major winning ball in the same why that they do currently.

Not sure that is a factor. How many of the golf balls sold are actually major winning ones. The majority of ball are brand by association. People buy Warbirds and 65i of the world far more than ProV1 or TP5.

 

[Swango1980]

Advertising and reality are more different than chalk and cheese. At least chalk, and cheese, are both real things.

Definitely. Hence how funny it is that nearly every golf ball is branded as being super long. It will be just be interesting to know how the marketing people try and sell the new proposed golf balls, when their primary purpose for existing is to be shorter.

To be honest, I'm not overly bothered about the marketing departments, just was an interesting side topic to the issue. More generally, I'm not in favour of going backwards, but am in favour of limiting materials in the future, to stop a huge jump in distance. Personally, I don't find the distance the pros hit the ball a turn off when considering watching a tournament on TV. If anything, it is another reason to watch it. I've also not seen it as an issue at club level. In fact, I think it has been a huge factor in making it more appealing for amateurs at all levels.

 

[Slab]

Not sure how many courses have been built recently- but the likes of Celtic Manor purpose built for the Ryder Cup , the likes of JCB and Centurion built for Tour events in mind

But there aren’t that many new courses as such being opened up on a regular occurrence

Even when new courses are built they have multiple tees built to factor in the different levels of players

I don't have the research time but I'm confident to say it'll number in the hundreds if not more in the last 10 years

 

[wjemather]

However, even if they take a few yards off the distance a golf ball will travel, what difference does it really make to golf courses? You will still get golf courses in very tight spaces, and others expanded over many many acres. It's one of the beauties of golf, that every course is very very different.

It will make a huge difference to places like the Old Course, where equipment has long since neutered their challenges.

 

[Swango1980]

It will make a huge difference to places like the Old Course, where equipment has long since neutered their challenges.

So, it'll make a huge difference to at least one course. Although, will the difference really be that huge? Unless we are talking about reducing the distance to get us back to 1984 levels, the winning scores at The Open at St Andrews have been around the same sort of score Faldo posted in 1990. Given the amount of extra talent, better fitness and coaching and money that has gone into the game over the last 20 years, if distance was becoming a steadily "worse" problem, then I'd have thought the winning scores would be rapidly coming down. The last 3 winners have been Oosthuizen, Zach Johnson and Smith. I'm not sure any of them are known to be the biggest hitting players on Tour, certainly not Zach Johnson. So, maybe an indication that hitting it a long way has not neutered its challenges at all. When Tiger won it, was it not the time he just hit iron of every tee and didn't go in a single bunker? Not sure he overpowered the course then, rather he gave it the full respect it deserved.

 

[wjemather]

So, it'll make a huge difference to at least one course. Although, will the difference really be that huge? Unless we are talking about reducing the distance to get us back to 1984 levels, the winning scores at The Open at St Andrews have been around the same sort of score Faldo posted in 1990. Given the amount of extra talent, better fitness and coaching and money that has gone into the game over the last 20 years, if distance was becoming a steadily "worse" problem, then I'd have thought the winning scores would be rapidly coming down. The last 3 winners have been Oosthuizen, Zach Johnson and Smith. I'm not sure any of them are known to be the biggest hitting players on Tour, certainly not Zach Johnson. So, maybe an indication that hitting it a long way has not neutered its challenges at all. When Tiger won it, was it not the time he just hit iron of every tee and didn't go in a single bunker? Not sure he overpowered the course then, rather he gave it the full respect it deserved.

Really need to look beyond the winning scores. Last year, for example, there were plenty of pretty extreme (described as "unusually difficult" and "unprecedented") hole locations specifically chosen to limit scoring and avoid any sub-60 rounds.

I think you maybe referring to Hoylake in 2006 (one driver in 4 rounds), and the course played very fast that week; although it does just further illustrate the point.

 

[BiMGuy]

Maybe they need to roll back the fairways?

Min Woo Lee hit his 2 iron 300 yards on the 18th at the players last week.

And 365 in this clip.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1323936023739396096

 

[Bdill93]

Maybe they need to roll back the fairways?

Min Woo Lee hit his 2 iron 300 yards on the 18th at the players last week.

And 365 in this clip.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1323936023739396096

This just isn't fair

 

[Wabinez]

Maybe they need to roll back the fairways?

You realise this is a terrible argument right?


Course conditions at Torrey Pines are different to Augusta are different to Sawgrass are different to TPC Scottsdale are different to The Old Course are different to The Belfry are different to Royal Melbourne West are different to...and on and on and on.

The ball is the only thing it makes sense to keep in control of. And lets also be clear, whilst it may help rein in some of the hitters today, it's also the Pros in 10 years time, who will continue to get longer and longer. Putting the restrictions on the ball now makes perfect sense. And yes, it probably should have happened 20 years ago.....but not doing anything for another 20 years will be completely detrimental.

 

[D-S]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1636322380543918085

 

[Jimaroid]

The Old Course has been changed more than people seem to remember in the last 20 years. 50 yards were added to the 17th ahead of the 2010 Open for a start. Bunkers have been added and repositioned around greens and fairways on 2, 3, 4, 6 ahead of the 2015 Open to change approach and landing zones, same time they flattened the 11th Green to make more pin positions available (and made its notorious issue with wind worse). Some tees shortened and some lengthened to bring hazards into play. Huge swathes of gorse and waste areas removed and resculpted. Hollows removed, humps added, tees re-positioned.

The yardage book hasn’t changed much between 2015 and 2022 but the course protection has been constantly tweaked.

I don’t think that’s sustainable for the future though. I think they’re maxed out with options unless more hazards are added. The championship tees for a number of the holes aren’t even on the course any more, it’s daft. The 2nd tee is on the Himalayas. The 13th and 14th Tees are on the Eden. The 17th Tee is on the practice range.

Edit: The 10th tee is on The New. And I’ve probably still forgetten a few. The notion that we’re playing the same courses as the Pros is pure fantasy to me, how much more do the tees have to move before someone says the emperor is naked?

 

[Imurg]

I'm not sure if it's been mentioned yet but, if they're going to touch any of the equipment, it has to be the ball.
So far, everyone's focusing on driving...
The ball is the only thing used on every shot..so 2 irons are going to be shorter, so are 7s and wedges
I still don't think it's necessary but it won't just knock 30 yards off a drive....it may even effect putting..who knows...

 

[Swango1980]

The Old Course has been changed more than people seem to remember in the last 20 years. 50 yards were added to the 17th ahead of the 2010 Open for a start. Bunkers have been added and repositioned around greens and fairways on 2, 3, 4, 6 ahead of the 2015 Open to change approach and landing zones, same time they flattened the 11th Green to make more pin positions available (and made its notorious issue with wind worse). Some tees shortened and some lengthened to bring hazards into play. Huge swathes of gorse and waste areas removed and resculpted. Hollows removed, humps added, tees re-positioned.

The yardage book hasn’t changed much between 2015 and 2022 but the course protection has been constantly tweaked.

I don’t think that’s sustainable for the future though. I think they’re maxed out with options unless more hazards are added. The championship tees for a number of the holes aren’t even on the course any more, it’s daft. The 2nd tee is on the Himalayas. The 13th and 14th Tees are on the Eden. The 17th Tee is on the practice range.

Edit: The 10th tee is on The New. And I’ve probably still forgetten a few. The notion that we’re playing the same courses as the Pros is pure fantasy to me, how much more do the tees have to move before someone says the emperor is naked?

If they had to make all those changes between 2015-2022 because the bigger distances the professionals hit the ball, it is a shame to see all that work become redundant if the distance was limited to levels we saw x many years ago (not sure the value of x?)

Just out of interest, I'm not sure I've see it on this post, how has the various equipment evolved over, say, the last 10 and 20 years, and how has that impacted distance. So, if you were to take someone like McIlroy, Bryson or DJ, and ask them to hit 20 drives with a 2000 ball, 2005 ball, 2010 ball, 2015 ball, 2020 ball and the ball today, would there be noticeable increases in distance as you play the later years ball? Then, if you kept the ball the same, but asked them to do the same with the various Driver models from those years, what would the impact be?

Genuinely interested if anyone has isolated every factor that could contribute to driving from an equipment perspective, to see what the results were. and, assuming they don't account for the overall increases we are seeing, the rest of the difference is likely due to fitness and coaching

 

[Jimaroid]

If they had to make all those changes between 2015-2022

To be clear, those were changes they’ve been making between 2005 and 2022. The 17th tee was moved 50 yards back ahead of the 2010 Open and I’ve just rattled off a number of the other ones I can remember since then.

 

[clubchamp98]

Maybe we need a spin off game, where we could play with balls like ping pong or squash balls. We could have 18 holes in the space not much bigger than a football pitch

It’s been done by Jack Nicklaus in the Caymen islands I think years ago.
very short course but you can only use 50 compression balls.

 

[D-S]

A tad over the top?
‘DeChambeau, who is among the longest hitters in the game, told the LIV Golf website: "I think it is the most atrocious thing you could do to the game of golf.” ’

 

[Imurg]

A tad over the top?
‘DeChambeau, who is among the longest hitters in the game, told the LIV Golf website: "I think it is the most atrocious thing you could do to the game of golf.” ’

Could be the biggest argument for going ahead with the rollback if it upsets him that much

 

[BiMGuy]

Could be the biggest argument for going ahead with the rollback if it upsets him that much

Seems like a great idea all of a sudden

 

[clubchamp98]

Seems like a great idea all of a sudden

To be fair he’s based his game on equipment now avaliable.