Right Shoulder/Right Elbow

[One Planer]

From the top of the backswing, when moving your weight into your left side, my understanding is that the right shoulder should lower, and the right elbow move in towards the body.

This is something I've not been doing, despite working on it with my pro. You can guess what happens. OTT movement and hit a dead pull to the left. Not every time, but too often for my liking.

Last Saturdays medal saw me shoot 1 under my handicap despite me pulling the ball quite regularly. Not quite enough of a score for a reduction (... Unless CSS does me a favor) but enough to give me confiedence that I can grind a score out when not swinging at my best.

My question:

With the above moving down and in, just how tight to the body should the elbow and upper arm stay? Touch tight? brushing by?

Would a suitable drill be to place a glove/tee under the right arm pit and attempt to keep it there through the swing? Is this how close it should be or is this more an exaggerated 'feeling' of the connection?

Any opinions, as always, appreciated :thup:

 

[JustOne]

Your right elbow should be 6-9" away from your side at the top of your backswing.

In the transition/downswing it should move to a position in front of your ribs (kinda towards the appendix) so that the club remains in 'front' of you and you retain the right wrist bend. It doesn't matter if it quite touches you or not, that's up to the individual.

The glove in the armpit drill is really one to avoid in my opinion, it's a connection drill for people that swing like Eamonn Darcy that no longer want to. You don't want your right arm (upper or elbow) sucked into your side during your backswing, you need 'width' and not 'cramped'.

 

[One Planer]

Your right elbow should be 6-9" away from your side at the top of your backswing.

In the transition/downswing it should move to a position in front of your ribs (kinda towards the appendix) so that the club remains in 'front' of you and you retain the right wrist bend. It doesn't matter if it quite touches you or not, that's up to the individual.

The glove in the armpit drill is really one to avoid in my opinion, it's a connection drill for people that swing like Eamonn Darcy that no longer want to. You don't want your right arm (upper or elbow) sucked into your side during your backswing, you need 'width' and not 'cramped'.

Thanks for that James.

I'm more concerned with the action in transition to the downswing at the minute. Making the correct move from there.

As an asside.

I know Jason Duffner keeps his arm, pretty tight to his side going back:

Is this a individual thing as much as what "should" be done. I am like you suggest with my elbow a small distance from my body.

 

[JustOne]

It's important to notice just how little a good player will swing their arms. The right upper arm rarely gets behind the side-seem of their golf shirt (if they had one). Dufner in that pic has his elbow away from his side, there are some swings where he has it stuck like glue (some iron swings) and some swings where it's intermediate...

If you watch this swing in the transition/downswing you can actually SEE his right elbow coming down and positioning itself into his appendix area so it's can't be stuck into his side in THIS swing.

[video=youtube;oNUNAtbjvnE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNUNAtbjvnE[/video]

He's probably not the best swing model (some people are more connected than others) but never the less the action is pretty much the same for all... the elbow positions itself in front of the right hip in the downswing.

Another one here where you can see the elbow away from the side... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7r0XcqTM6Q


(love his takeaway where he gets the shoulders started first, very clever)

 

[One Planer]

You make a good point there James RE: Arms swing, as I'm trying to take my arms out of the transition as I and my pro believe that is what's causing my issue.

I'm trying to hit the ball from the top rather than allowing my transition to get me into a good position.

The instruction my pro gave me was to think "Right shoulder down, right elbow in"

I shift my weight effectivley as I rarely hit anything fat, but the OTT action, caused by trying to hit from the top, is causing my pull.

 

[JustOne]

here's a different thought...

pick a point approx in the middle of your club shaft.... from your transition downwards try and keep that middle of the shaft the same distance away from your right bicep until you get to hip high. You have to turn your right shoulder down to do that and you can't cast the club or else the shaft will get further away. Obviously if other parts of your swing are wrong you'll fat the ball, top it etc etc (just like Gibbo does) but that's the move you're after.

here's a pic... the yellow line stays the same... you feel like the distance to the club remains constant... as the club comes down so does your bicep... the elbow has to get in front of the hip to do this, and the right shoulder has to turn down. If you don't have forward shaft lean you're going to struggle to hit the ball though, but this IS what you're after...

see how he keeps 'the 3 sided box' (in red) between right bicep and clubshaft,...

 

[One Planer]

here's a different thought...

pick a point approx in the middle of your club shaft.... from your transition downwards try and keep that middle of the shaft the same distance away from your right bicep until you get to hip high. You have to turn your right shoulder down to do that and you can't cast the club or else the shaft will get further away. Obviously if other parts of your swing are wrong you'll fat the ball, top it etc etc (just like Gibbo does) but that's the move you're after.

It's similar to the position to a picture on a previous thread about clearing my hips.

 

[JustOne]

edited my post...

 

[One Planer]

here's a different thought...

pick a point approx in the middle of your club shaft.... from your transition downwards try and keep that middle of the shaft the same distance away from your right bicep until you get to hip high. You have to turn your right shoulder down to do that and you can't cast the club or else the shaft will get further away. Obviously if other parts of your swing are wrong you'll fat the ball, top it etc etc (just like Gibbo does) but that's the move you're after.

here's a pic... the yellow line stays the same... you feel like the distance to the club remains constant... as the club comes down so does your bicep... the elbow has to get in front of the hip to do this, and the right shoulder has to turn down. If you don't have forward shaft lean you're going to struggle to hit the ball though, but this IS what you're after...

see how he keeps 'the 3 sided box' (in red) between right bicep and clubshaft,...

I see what you mean.

Here are 2 DTL stills from my last swing video:

If my understanding of your box analogy is correct, my arms are in, or near to, the correct positions in the pictures above.

 

[JustOne]

Not bad, your right elbow could be a little more forward in the top pic but I know your desperately trying to swing from the inside. When it stays back you're 'stuck'.


I know this is probably a crap analogy but if you think of a train engine backing into a carriage and once they are coupled up the train drives off forwards both together - well that's what the swing is like, you create that box in the backswing then drive the entire box down towards the ball, you don't suddenly separate the box at the top once you've created it. It feels like you swing down until your shoulder literally can't hold onto the speed by which time your hands are practically over the ball and then the right arm straightens/extends thru the ball automatically.

If the right shoulder stays back then you have increased the distance between the bicep and the shaft (you no longer have a box), the right arm extends too early so now you either have to early extend your body to get out of the way of the club and/or flip it thru impact. It's easier to see from face on pics/vids.

If you look at your lower pic your right shoulder is not yet in place, (it's high) if you've stopped turning then you're about to flip the club. You're quite straight legged so it's as if you've made a little space to accommodate for the flip. It's not a bad position but it's just what's going to happen from there on in. If your right shoulder is still turning down to the ball then you're fine....


Lots of your swing is good... you just need an overall picture so you can sense what it is you should be doing. Your hands should be 7-10 inches in front of your nose at impact... that's the hard part.... left hip cleared, right shoulder down.

 

[One Planer]

Not bad, your right elbow could be a little more forward in the top pic but I know your desperately trying to swing from the inside. When it stays back you're 'stuck'.


I know this is probably a crap analogy but if you think of a train engine backing into a carriage and once they are coupled up the train drives off forwards both together - well that's what the swing is like, you create that box in the backswing then drive the entire box down towards the ball, you don't suddenly separate the box at the top once you've created it. It feels like you swing down until your shoulder literally can't hold onto the speed by which time your hands are practically over the ball and then the right arm straightens/extends thru the ball automatically.

If the right shoulder stays back then you have increased the distance between the bicep and the shaft (you no longer have a box), the right arm extends too early so now you either have to early extend your body to get out of the way of the club and/or flip it thru impact. It's easier to see from face on pics/vids.

If you look at your lower pic your right shoulder is not yet in place, (it's high) if you've stopped turning then you're about to flip the club. You're quite straight legged so it's as if you've made a little space to accommodate for the flip. It's not a bad position but it's just what's going to happen from there on in. If your right shoulder is still turning down to the ball then you're fine....


Lots of your swing is good... you just need an overall picture so you can sense what it is you should be doing. Your hands should be 7-10 inches in front of your nose at impact... that's the hard part.... left hip cleared, right shoulder down.

Which I suppose is why so much empahsis is put on rotation and keeping the swing moving so things don't get stuck and cause things to get out of sync.

 

[JustOne]

That's right, people think they swing the arms around themselves and then swing them back down again where in reality the arms hook up with the rest of the body at the top and the whole thing kind of goes together as one. Throw the arms and the shoulder gets left behind, keep the arms still and the shoulders turn taking the plane over the top.. it's just a sequence and sometimes it just 'clicks' with people and they end up with a reasonable swing that'll get them to CAT1... or CAT2 if you're crap (read as old) like me

 

[Hobbit]

Straight legs and closed stance causing the upper body to cast the club, because its cramped, to get it swing on target - result, a pull. Probably some lost distance too because of the difficulty in transfering the weight due to the straight legs - most of the power coming from the arms. Left foot could do with being turned out a bit to aid clearance.

Alignment seems to be more the issue. Sorting the alignment out will give you more room to swing the upper body rather than casting the arms and pulling.

 

[Foxholer]

Those feet look Soooo wrong!

I believe that left foot should be pointing at 10 o'clock. Looks to be almost at 12:30!!!

Might not help the specific problem you are looking to solve at the moment, but could well encourage hip turn and get them out of the way so you don't get stuck.

 

[3righthands]

Club is way too steep...you need to flare the front foot out, and feel like you are going to get the lower body forward first...until you do this you'll always struggle to come inside and get the elbow to the location being specified in Dufner.

Watch Dufner's feet for an indication of how much he uses his lower body in the downswing.

 

[SocketRocket]

Gareth.

Stand at address without a club and let your arms hang down loosely so your palms are together. Now leaving your right arm as it is take your right hand back to the top making a backswing, now swing your right hand down and clap it into your left by the most direct route, do it again and again.

Did you come out to in?

Did your right palm square up to your left?

Did you have any problems with your right elbow?

 

[SocketRocket]

Gareth.

Stand at address without a club and let your arms hang down loosely so your palms are together. Now leaving your LEFT arm as it is take your right hand back to the top making a backswing, now swing your right hand down and clap it into your left by the most direct route, do it again and again.

Did you come out to in?

Did your right palm square up to your left?

Did you have any problems with your right elbow?

Sorry Gareth. Meant 'leave your LEFT arm'