Replace handicap with just the category?

[woody69]

One of the biggest talking points is how some players play significantly better than their allocated handicap in any given comp and end up walking away with the prize. The reasons for this can of course be because that player simply had the round the their life. It might be because they are simply practicing and improving at a faster rate than the handicap system can keep up with. It also might be because the player has somehow massaged their handicap at a higher level than they actually are in order to go out and win a comp (although I think these so called bandits are rarer than rocking horse ****)

Still, one way to potentially get around this would be to scrap the traditional handicap system as we currently have it and replace it with a category system only, divisions if you like. I would amend the category/division bands slightly to the existing ones to be something like

Cat 1: 0 - 5
Cat 2: 6 - 10
Cat 3: 11 - 18
Cat 4: 19 - 25
Cat 5: 26+

You then just play against players in the same category/division at scratch. That would mean you could still have a "competitive" round of golf as you are playing against players with similar ability.

At the end of each month, depending on how many comps you win, or where you place you would automatically move up a division. Likewise if you lost loads and finished in the bottom few places, you get relegated to the lower categories. Supplementary scorecards can still be submitted and used to assist you in moving up categories, but not down.

You could also have a cup comp where you are drawn against any player from any division and based on that it would determine the max number of shots you actually get.

Seems like I am trying to reinvent the wheel, but it would remove the stigma attached to someone with a high handicap as you could be anything within a band based on your category and it will also mean someone having a great round wouldn't have such an impact as you could already be playing a player that "technically" is much better than you anyway.

I will name this system WOODYGU69.

Who wants to sign up?

 

[Birchy]

This would result in :-

Most of Cat 1 scratch or 1
Most of Cat 2 6 or 7
Most of Cat 3 11 or 12
Most of Cat 4 19 or 20
Most of Cat 5 26-28

Basically its just rewarding players who are on a certain border of handicap.

 

[patricks148]

Ive a better idea... eveyone plays off scratch

 

[woody69]

Ive a better idea... eveone plays off scratch

That's the point though. Everyone is playing off scratch, just against players of similar ability.

 

[Foxholer]

Ive a better idea... eveyone plays off scratch

Or off their handicap.

I used to have a friendly wager with a guy off 3 or 4 shots more than me in each qualifying comp. That wouldn't happen - unless he negotiated 'shots'!

 

[Doon frae Troon]

I had a friend who let his handicap slip when at Uni.
He was allowed to enter the big open handicap KO cup at our course but had to play off scratch.
He was about 8 handicap at the time.
Out of about 250 entries of the county's finest golfers he played through to the semi finals.

Sometimes handicap can be all in the head.
An entrant for this weeks Senior Open at Birkdale played to 17 handicap.

 

[Five&One]

Turning a unique all encompassing all inclusive game and leisure activity into an elite sport where only the top 5%, even at a piss ant little run of the mill club, have an earthly of winning or achieving anything or having the motivation or the time for betterment ? In fact forget that, you would completely destroy grass roots golf in this country and close 1500 golf courses in one stroke of the pen.

Anything that significantly changes the current level-ish playing field is a complete non starter and not worthy of the bandwidth often afforded to it. Everyone who plays golf or administrates golf, or more importantly, keeps a golf club running, knows this.

End of thread.

 

[HawkeyeMS]

Oi, if you search back in the forum you will see that I floated this idea a couple of times so I have copyright

I would still keep the h'cap system to define which division you are in though and move people between divisions as an when their h'cap dictates but everyone would play off of scratch for the purposes of the competition. I have no idea how it would work as I haven't given it much thought beyond the initial idea but it seems to me to have at least some plus points but probably a lot of negative ones.

 

[HawkeyeMS]

Turning a unique all encompassing all inclusive game and leisure activity into an elite sport where only the top 5%, even at a piss ant little run of the mill club, have an earthly of winning or achieving anything or having the motivation or the time for betterment ? In fact forget that, you would completely destroy grass roots golf in this country and close 1500 golf courses in one stroke of the pen.

Anything that significantly changes the current level-ish playing field is a complete non starter and not worthy of the bandwidth often afforded to it. Everyone who plays golf or administrates golf, or more importantly, keeps a golf club running, knows this.

End of thread.

The handicap system isn't a level-ish playing field, but it is the best we've got so we just have to accept it until someone comes up with something better.

I do accept that making it harder for people to win would destroy club golf as we know it however, people do like to be rewarded for being not very good

 

[Five&One]

The handicap system isn't a level-ish playing field, but it is the best we've got so we just have to accept it until someone comes up with something better.

I do accept that making it harder for people to win would destroy club golf as we know it however, people do like to be rewarded for being not very good

When I can stand on the hypothetical tee next to Tiger Woods with a theoretical CONGU chance of beating him, you don't get a much more level playing field than that. Some would say that the playing field is too level because guys who have worked really hard to improve, and probably had a fair slice of success on the way suddenly find it harder to improve in leaps and bounds. If you are down to single figures, your scope for putting in a winning card is narrower and narrower. I see a case for adding more weight to scratch competitions and more kudos for winning them or doing well in them, of course I do, but that isn't the nature and culture of club golf. The nature and culture of club golf favours and encourages the improving golfer for the most part. I would suggest most medals are won by handicappers in the teens. Handicappers who have improved from the mid 20's and who improved BECAUSE the system encouraged and rewarded improvement.

Next to having lessons from a pro, most high handicappers get their learning and most of all motivation from playing with better players in a competitive environment. Take that away and force people to play and compete only within their own category and you have lost a big slice of what is good about golf at amateur level and you've lost one of the big ladders to improving IMO.

 

[pbrown7582]

There is a similar system in operation at many places already with divsional prizes? and a gross prize this allows everyone to enter a comp and have an equal chance against those of similar standard???

 

[User20205]

The handicap system isn't a level-ish playing field, but it is the best we've got so we just have to accept it until someone comes up with something better.

I do accept that making it harder for people to win would destroy club golf as we know it however, people do like to be rewarded for being not very good

people like winning things, or more accurately deluding themselves into thinking they are winning !! if the handicap system was binned tomorrow I would still play, I would still enter comps. If anyone only plays the game to win a couple of quid in the monthly medal you'd have to question their motivation

 

[woody69]

Turning a unique all encompassing all inclusive game and leisure activity into an elite sport where only the top 5%, even at a piss ant little run of the mill club, have an earthly of winning or achieving anything or having the motivation or the time for betterment ? In fact forget that, you would completely destroy grass roots golf in this country and close 1500 golf courses in one stroke of the pen.

Anything that significantly changes the current level-ish playing field is a complete non starter and not worthy of the bandwidth often afforded to it. Everyone who plays golf or administrates golf, or more importantly, keeps a golf club running, knows this.

End of thread.

I honestly don't understand how you reach this conclusion. The suggestion is you will still play against people of your approximate level. I am not suggesting we take someone on 1 and get them to play against a 28 off scratch. The 28 would play against a 26 at best and the 1 would play against at "worst" someone who is off 5, but both would be off scratch in their respective matches. This would enable both players to have true rights as to who was the "better player" on the day in their match as they are off a level playing field. This format would also mean everyone in their division has a chance of winning on their day.

As a high handicapper I would prefer this TBH. I regularly play with someone who is off 17, but y/day we played a match off scratch and I beat him 2and1. Not because I played out of my skin, and not because he played absolutely awful, I was just better on the day. Of course if we played 10 times he would probably beat me more than I would him, but I'd still have my day as one could with this format on a large scale and if you win the comp, or even place you are automatically "promoted" to the next division".

 

[Five&One]

people like winning things, or more accurately deluding themselves into thinking they are winning !! if the handicap system was binned tomorrow I would still play, I would still enter comps. If anyone only plays the game to win a couple of quid in the monthly medal you'd have to question their motivation

I would still play, just not in medals.

Here is the way I look at it. You WIN at golf by doing better against the course than you have previously done. You are playing against the course, not against other players. Nothing you can do effects another players performance and nothing he can do effects yours. Everyone in a competition is therefore playing against the course. The winner is the guy who did best AGAINST THE COURSE, relative to his pre-supposed ability. If he does well, the next time he plays the course he gets less of an advantage. If he does consistently poorly he gets a better chance. The other players are totally irrelevant to the actual performance. It is only when each players performance against the course is assessed that you have a result.

 

[patricks148]

people like winning things, or more accurately deluding themselves into thinking they are winning !! if the handicap system was binned tomorrow I would still play, I would still enter comps. If anyone only plays the game to win a couple of quid in the monthly medal you'd have to question their motivation

Well said, I too would still play.

I'm not a member of a club because of the handicap system, but to play golf. Is it not also the case that there are an increasing number of players who are not members of clubs??? so those don't have handicaps, yet still play.

They guys i play bounce games against are all lower handicap wise than I and we play scratch games only and i win my fair share

 

[Five&One]

I honestly don't understand how you reach this conclusion. ".

The conclusion is perfectly understandable and you do understand it. You just don't agree with it. No problem here with that.

Golf to me is uniquely all inclusive. The handicap system provides a sporting edge no matter who you are playing and that to me is the whole ethos of the game. There are dozens of other sports available for those who only want to play and compete with those of similar ability, in fact almost every other sport you can think of and participate in has that elitist element.

 

[Jack_bfc]

people like winning things, or more accurately deluding themselves into thinking they are winning !! if the handicap system was binned tomorrow I would still play, I would still enter comps. If anyone only plays the game to win a couple of quid in the monthly medal you'd have to question their motivation

I only play in comps to try and reduce my HC and have it managed by the club. I have my own spreadsheet which I try and manage for my 'bounce' (not sure what that means) games.

My official HC is 23 (hoping for a cut)

My personal unofficial HC is 19... which is counting all the rounds this year using a basic cut procedure as read on here somewhere.


I like playing in club comps now and again but not enough to keep up with my game improvement this year.

 

[woody69]

The conclusion is perfectly understandable and you do understand it. You just don't agree with it. No problem here with that.

Golf to me is uniquely all inclusive. The handicap system provides a sporting edge no matter who you are playing and that to me is the whole ethos of the game. There are dozens of other sports available for those who only want to play and compete with those of similar ability, in fact almost every other sport you can think of and participate in has that elitist element.

What I don't understand is how you came to the conclusion that by offering an alternative to the existing handicap system where by it works based on "divisions" as opposed to a number of 0-36 (or 28 for men) would mean only the top 5% would ever win anything, which in turn would end up closing 1500 golf courses! It's a little bit of a straw man argument to me.

FWIW you would still have a sporting edge if you played against people in a higher category, but within your own category you would be playing off scratch and therefore truly the better golfer in that match at that time. Low handicap players wouldn't bleat on about bandits of 21 winning a comp as they wouldn't play against them week in week out as they would play within their category unless it was a special open category comp. When these matches did happen, I think the number of times someone in a higher category scored very low and beat the lower handicap golfer by much more than deemed realistic would be far less.

 

[Five&One]

Well said, I too would still play.

I'm not a member of a club because of the handicap system, but to play golf. Is it not also the case that there are an increasing number of players who are not members of clubs??? so those don't have handicaps, yet still play.

They guys i play bounce games against are all lower handicap wise than I and we play scratch games only and i win my fair share

Not much of a sacrifice playing scratch golf at 7 handicap and below though is it.

In a scratch game I would have no little or chance of beating you, therefore no sporting edge is present and very little enjoyment of the game on either side in terms of competing. Whether that be a bounce game or otherwise. There are other things to enjoy in a game of golf of course, but it wouldn't be a sporting contest as such and thats mostly why I play golf. Otherwise I'd go for a nice 4 mile walk with a pal and save a fortune.

Bounce golf I tend to play with players of my own ability but that's by coincidence rather than design and we are happily close enough handicap wise to play off scratch with each other.

Surely you play at your club against higher handicap players. I'd have thought playing off 7 against a guy off 18 is a challenge for you and motivation for you, leading to enjoyment of the challenge and the achievement of a win. If you play someone of that ability off scratch your work is done by about the 12th or 13th, 9 times out of 10.

 

[Five&One]

What I don't understand is how you came to the conclusion that by offering an alternative to the existing handicap system where by it works based on "divisions" as opposed to a number of 0-36 (or 28 for men) would mean only the top 5% would ever win anything, which in turn would end up closing 1500 golf courses! It's a little bit of a straw man argument to me.

FWIW you would still have a sporting edge if you played against people in a higher category, but within your own category you would be playing off scratch and therefore truly the better golfer in that match at that time. Low handicap players wouldn't bleat on about bandits of 21 winning a comp as they wouldn't play against them week in week out as they would play within their category unless it was a special open category comp. When these matches did happen, I think the number of times someone in a higher category scored very low and beat the lower handicap golfer by much more than deemed realistic would be far less.

I don't think there should be an alternative because I believe the current system works well. That's it in a nutshell.

Its the age old argument, and I do get it and sympathise with it, that low handicap players i.e those with most ability or who have worked hardest to improve their game, tend not to win competitions because their scope for beating their handicap, as you generally need to do to win a medal, is so much reduced. I agree that needs to be looked at and tinkered with.

I don't think there is a whole army of bandits roaming the country taking advantage of CONGU and running off with all the open competition dosh. I think its the exception rather than the rule and the CONGU system does much more to prevent it happening than encouraging it to happen.

The answer is most certainly not to divide golf club memberships into divisions and categories who don't play with or against each other. God sake there is already more than enough elitism in the sport at club level.