Replace handicap with just the category?

[User20205]

I would still play, just not in medals.

Here is the way I look at it. You WIN at golf by doing better against the course than you have previously done. You are playing against the course, not against other players. Nothing you can do effects another players performance and nothing he can do effects yours. Everyone in a competition is therefore playing against the course. The winner is the guy who did best AGAINST THE COURSE, relative to his pre-supposed ability. If he does well, the next time he plays the course he gets less of an advantage. If he does consistently poorly he gets a better chance. The other players are totally irrelevant to the actual performance. It is only when each players performance against the course is assessed that you have a result.

100% :thup:

so why

When I can stand on the hypothetical tee next to Tiger Woods with a theoretical CONGU chance of beating him

I reckon Tiger could give you more than 26 shots he could give most of us more than 26 shots :thup:

 

[palindromicbob]

I only play in comps to try and reduce my HC and have it managed by the club. I have my own spreadsheet which I try and manage for my 'bounce' (not sure what that means) games.

My official HC is 23 (hoping for a cut)

My personal unofficial HC is 19... which is counting all the rounds this year using a basic cut procedure as read on here somewhere.


I like playing in club comps now and again but not enough to keep up with my game improvement this year.

Dangerous words to be posting here with all the recent handicap related stuff here lately . The official/unofficial HC has been rasied in a few other threads.

If you have improved by 4 shots but haven't entered enough comps to get the cuts then start submitting supplementary cards to help get the official HC down. At least if you have a regular track record of progress and then go on to shoot the lights out you'll have proof you aren't pulling a fly one.

 

[patricks148]

Not much of a sacrifice playing scratch golf at 7 handicap and below though is it.

In a scratch game I would have no little or chance of beating you, therefore no sporting edge is present and very little enjoyment of the game on either side in terms of competing. Whether that be a bounce game or otherwise. There are other things to enjoy in a game of golf of course, but it wouldn't be a sporting contest as such and thats mostly why I play golf. Otherwise I'd go for a nice 4 mile walk with a pal and save a fortune.

Bounce golf I tend to play with players of my own ability but that's by coincidence rather than design and we are happily close enough handicap wise to play off scratch with each other.

Surely you play at your club against higher handicap players. I'd have thought playing off 7 against a guy off 18 is a challenge for you and motivation for you, leading to enjoyment of the challenge and the achievement of a win. If you play someone of that ability off scratch your work is done by about the 12th or 13th, 9 times out of 10.

I've played plenty og games against higher handicappers, but its not much fun giving away more shots than you would revieve in a stroke play event.

Against a guy recently off 21 and gave away 14 shots ( the most ive had to give away is 21 shots) he pared all but one of his shot holes and had the round of his year, but i had to make 13 birdies to even half those holes, so who's the better player????

 

[Rooter]

Against a guy recently off 21 and gave away 14 shots ( the most ive had to give away is 21 shots) he pared all but one of his shot holes and had the round of his year, but i had to make 13 birdies to even half those holes, so who's the better player????

he won. ergo he is! lol

 

[Five&One]

I only play in comps to try and reduce my HC and have it managed by the club. I have my own spreadsheet which I try and manage for my 'bounce' (not sure what that means) games.

My official HC is 23 (hoping for a cut)

My personal unofficial HC is 19... which is counting all the rounds this year using a basic cut procedure as read on here somewhere.


I like playing in club comps now and again but not enough to keep up with my game improvement this year.

Have I got this right ? You can play off 19 but you maintain an artificially high handicap of 23 ? Not sure I have read you correctly but that's the very definition of a bandit if you play a round of competitive golf with an artificially high handicap. Perhaps I have misread or misinterpreted what you typed and apologies if I have.

 

[woody69]

I don't think there should be an alternative because I believe the current system works well. That's it in a nutshell.

Its the age old argument, and I do get it and sympathise with it, that low handicap players i.e those with most ability or who have worked hardest to improve their game, tend not to win competitions because their scope for beating their handicap, as you generally need to do to win a medal, is so much reduced. I agree that needs to be looked at and tinkered with.

I don't think there is a whole army of bandits roaming the country taking advantage of CONGU and running off with all the open competition dosh. I think its the exception rather than the rule and the CONGU system does much more to prevent it happening than encouraging it to happen.

The answer is most certainly not to divide golf club memberships into divisions and categories who don't play with or against each other. God sake there is already more than enough elitism in the sport at club level.

I completely agree with you here. It's all a bit of a myth that there are these people who artificially maintain a high handicap just to clean up in a comp, certainly not deliberately. They would soon get found out!

The 2nd bit I have bolded I'm a little on the fence about. I do like the so called "level playing field" handicap offers, but the system I have proposed would still offer this as an opportunity. It would just be less in actual comps. The thing I'm not sure about though is how it will create elitism to be any different than it is now. Standing on the tee with a guy of 1 giving me 20 shots so we can theoretically have a level playing field makes me shrink to be about 2 inches high. I'd rather all he knew was I was in Div 5 (or whatever) so could be anything from 18 to 25 and I only get say 2 shots a div difference. Is he likely to beat me? Probably, but then he's the much better player. Can I have an amazing round and he struggles and I walk away with a win? Yep and I bet I wouldn't be called a bandit.

 

[patricks148]

he won. ergo he is! lol

Under the current handicap system yes. In fact in that game i was only one or two over par gross but still lost heavily,

Its easier to make a few pars than it is birdies

 

[Five&One]

100% :thup:

so why

I reckon Tiger could give you more than 26 shots he could give most of us more than 26 shots :thup:

There is a rare occasion where Tiger does not beat par and it isn't beyond the realms of possibility that I can play a decent round and beat par after deduction of 26 shots, therefore theoretically, the system makes it possible for me to at least compete with him.

 

[Five&One]

I've played plenty og games against higher handicappers, but its not much fun giving away more shots than you would revieve in a stroke play event.

Against a guy recently off 21 and gave away 14 shots (the most ive had to give away is 21 shots) he pared all but one of his shot holes and had the round of his year, but i had to make 13 birdies to even half those holes, so who's the better player????

A 21 handicapper had 14 pars ? Gross pars you mean ? That's extraordinary and probably highly suspicious. I assume you didn't make the 13 birdies.

 

[patricks148]

A 21 handicapper had 14 pars ? Gross pars you mean ? That's extraordinary and probably highly suspicious. I assume you didn't make the 13 birdies.

I got tired of hearing " i get a shot here, so thats gross birdie" very quickly, though he did play well, very well. I played pretty well too and as i said was only a couple over gross. the bad holes he had didn't really matter a couple of 8's on holes didn't really matter.

That was at the start of the season He's since been cut to 13 or so after a few wins in comps i think but still, pretty handy even off the new handicap.

 

[Neddy]

Ultimately i consider Golf to be "Me vs the course" but I would probably be more likely to join a club if the system worked like this.

The idea that i could "win" a competition hacking it around in 87 when someone else has shot par has always seemed perverse to me.

Competing on a totally level playing field against people of similar ability is how almost all other sport works. Why not golf?

 

[6inchcup]

I had a friend who let his handicap slip when at Uni.
He was allowed to enter the big open handicap KO cup at our course but had to play off scratch.
He was about 8 handicap at the time.
Out of about 250 entries of the county's finest golfers he played through to the semi finals.

Sometimes handicap can be all in the head.
An entrant for this weeks Senior Open at Birkdale played to 17 handicap.

whoa!!! Bit harsh on MONTY

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Woody 69.

I really think you are on to something here.
I like lateral thinking.

Club medals only though.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

whoa!!! Bit harsh on MONTY

Give it a rest 6"

 

[TheClaw]

The conclusion is perfectly understandable and you do understand it. You just don't agree with it. No problem here with that.

Golf to me is uniquely all inclusive. The handicap system provides a sporting edge no matter who you are playing and that to me is the whole ethos of the game. There are dozens of other sports available for those who only want to play and compete with those of similar ability, in fact almost every other sport you can think of and participate in has that elitist element.

Uniquely all inclusive?? A sport where you need to have money to play...get references to join a club....then there's the sexism issues. All the rules and dress codes. You're having a laugh.

Football, basketball, snooker, darts etc. are inclusive. None of these sports need a system to allow people that are not very good to win things.

 

[Hacker Khan]

Turning a unique all encompassing all inclusive game and leisure activity into an elite sport where only the top 5%, even at a piss ant little run of the mill club, have an earthly of winning or achieving anything or having the motivation or the time for betterment ? In fact forget that, you would completely destroy grass roots golf in this country and close 1500 golf courses in one stroke of the pen.

Anything that significantly changes the current level-ish playing field is a complete non starter and not worthy of the bandwidth often afforded to it. Everyone who plays golf or administrates golf, or more importantly, keeps a golf club running, knows this.

End of thread.

I like the cut of your jib. Especially the description of the club.

 

[Hacker Khan]

Football, basketball, snooker, darts etc. are inclusive. None of these sports need a system to allow people that are not very good to win things.

Yes they do, they are called leagues. My Sunday league a few years ago team won division 7 in our local area. And we were ****. And I can just about guarantee if we were playing against the best teams in all the area week after week and getting beat 9 or 10 nil we would not have bothered.

 

[TheClaw]

Yes they do, they are called leagues. My Sunday league a few years ago team won division 7 in our local area. And we were ****. And I can just about guarantee if we were playing against the best teams in all the area week after week and getting beat 9 or 10 nil we would not have bothered.

So it was a league then? Not a handicap system?

What's this thread about again??

 

[HawkeyeMS]

When I can stand on the hypothetical tee next to Tiger Woods with a theoretical CONGU chance of beating him, you don't get a much more level playing field than that. Some would say that the playing field is too level because guys who have worked really hard to improve, and probably had a fair slice of success on the way suddenly find it harder to improve in leaps and bounds. If you are down to single figures, your scope for putting in a winning card is narrower and narrower. I see a case for adding more weight to scratch competitions and more kudos for winning them or doing well in them, of course I do, but that isn't the nature and culture of club golf. The nature and culture of club golf favours and encourages the improving golfer for the most part. I would suggest most medals are won by handicappers in the teens. Handicappers who have improved from the mid 20's and who improved BECAUSE the system encouraged and rewarded improvement.

Next to having lessons from a pro, most high handicappers get their learning and most of all motivation from playing with better players in a competitive environment. Take that away and force people to play and compete only within their own category and you have lost a big slice of what is good about golf at amateur level and you've lost one of the big ladders to improving IMO.

I think we fundamentally agree that the h'cap system is good for club golf as we know it but it is far from a level playing field as you prove with your point about it being harder to win the lower you get. During the first round of our clubs champs we had a 6 h'capper shot +2 gross and a 3 h'capper shoot -1 gross. in a normal medal they would have finished 6th & 7th respectively

Your point about playing with low h'caps gives high guys motivation to improve is certainly true for a few guys like guys on here, but there are a lot more who have no intention of improving and all the time they have a chance of winning they won't try to improve. That is what is both good and bad about the h'cap system: it's good because it allows everyone to compete no matter how good you are and it's bad because it allows everyone to compete without trying to improve

 

[Neddy]

Yes they do, they are called leagues. My Sunday league a few years ago team won division 7 in our local area. And we were ****. And I can just about guarantee if we were playing against the best teams in all the area week after week and getting beat 9 or 10 nil we would not have bothered.

But that is what the OP is suggesting.

I would get infinitely more satisfaction beating a 20 handicapper on a totally level playing field (no shots) than beating a 10 handicapper because he had to give me a 13 shot head start.

But it seems i am in a minority