Quick rules question

[Jay1]

I know that during a competitive round, advice to a playing partner is prohibited.

But last night I was asked a question that I didn't know the anwer to. Which was - If a playing partner hits a ball towards an area you know to be dodgy (rough for example) is it permisable to suggest that they hit a provisional, or would this be construed as advice?

I would have thought that this would be ok, if nothing else to ensure the speed of play is maintained by avoiding a long walk back.

I'm probably wrong though

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Interesting one, a bit like 'take your time'.

What if you can see that they are about to tread in dog poo?

 

[BTatHome]

From memory, suggesting that someone plays a provisional is not considered to be advice.


... I remember reading this from a previous discussion.

 

[CMAC]

I believe providing the options which are facts is not construed as advice.
ie its a fact that if he thinks its in trouble his playing options are to nominate and play a provisional or proceed and try and find the ball running the risk of having to walk back to the tee.
Your not advising him what to do

 

[Jay1]

I believe providing the options which are facts is not construed as advice.
ie its a fact that if he thinks its in trouble his playing options are to nominate and play a provisional or proceed and try and find the ball running the risk of having to walk back to the tee.
Your not advising him what to do

So if he was about to pick up his tee and walk after the original ball, suggesting at that point that it might be worth hitting a provisional, could then be construed as advice, as he hadn't assessed the option himself?

 

[CMAC]

So if he was about to pick up his tee and walk after the original ball, suggesting at that point that it might be worth hitting a provisional, could then be construed as advice, as he hadn't assessed the option himself?

you can remind him of the rules-facts- that if he doesnt find it his options are to walk back and play another or have an NR. Again, its just facts..........

However, in the real world we all say it like this " I'd play another one if I was you just in case, you dont want to have the long walk back"

 

[Ethan]

Tricky one. No decision of golf available which directly addresses this, but Decision 8/1-16 is relevant:

Q. B's ball was lying badly. B was deliberating what action to take when A, his fellow-competitor, said: “You have no shot at all. If I were you, I would declare the ball unplayable”. Was A giving advice, contrary to Rule 8-1?

A. Yes. A's suggestion could have influenced B “in determining his play”. Thus, it constituted advice – see Definition of “Advice”. It did not constitute “information on the Rules”, which is not advice.

However, a provisional is different. If the player plays a provisional, or looks for the original and walks back, the net effect is the same, stroke and distance, and it more or less only depends on one issue - whether the original is found. But not exactly the same. If you hit a wonderful provo, you can walk up to it and play it from closer to the hole than the original, thus putting it into play, so you may have more choices there.

 

[muttleee]

So am I right in thinking that saying "You could play a provisional" is ok but "you should play a provisional" isn't?

 

[chrisd]

Giving information on the rules isn't "advice" so I see no reason why you couldn't say that "under the rules you are entitled to play a provisional ball" as you are only giving information on a rule.

 

[Ethan]

Giving information on the rules isn't "advice" so I see no reason why you couldn't say that "under the rules you are entitled to play a provisional ball" as you are only giving information on a rule.

Chris

The question is whether the comment would influence the player in determining his play, and there are differences between a provo and a walk back 3 off the tee, so I think there is an argument that this is advice.

But I don't know, so I sent a query to the R&A and will post the reply here if I get one.

 

[chrisd]

Surely Ethan any advice as to the rules is likely to lead to a player having choices and therefore, by definition, influence his play. However, it is perfectly ok to give the player his alternatives under the rules and in doing so, the knock on affect is that he may well be influenced in to a specific course of action - that surely is why a referee says "you can do this, that or the other" where choices exist.

You, acting as a referee in your particular game cannot say "if I were you I would....." but surely can say "these are the rules covering this specific matter act as you see fit"

 

[Ethan]

Surely Ethan any advice as to the rules is likely to lead to a player having choices and therefore, by definition, influence his play. However, it is perfectly ok to give the player his alternatives under the rules and in doing so, the knock on affect is that he may well be influenced in to a specific course of action - that surely is why a referee says "you can do this, that or the other" where choices exist.

You, acting as a referee in your particular game cannot say "if I were you I would....." but surely can say "these are the rules covering this specific matter act as you see fit"

I agree, but that wasn't the scenario. If a player asks what is permissible under the Rules, that is not advice, but if they ask about whether they should exercise one or other of their options under the Rules, that comes rather closer to advice, I think.

 

[chrisd]

I agree, but that wasn't the scenario. If a player asks what is permissible under the Rules, that is not advice, but if they ask about whether they should exercise one or other of their options under the Rules, that comes rather closer to advice, I think.

I actually dont think that there was a true scenario as the OP was only asking a question that he was asked by someone else.

Many a time when I've played I have suggested that it might be wise to play a provisional by saying " do you think its wise to play a provisional as its pretty deep rough there" or similar wording. I would not consider that as advice as I only posed a question and one that I think everyone should ask given the alternative is a 5 minute hunt and a walk back to the tee, and long morning out for our group!

I agree also that if a player says "I know I have two options here, under the rules, which do you think I should do" is blatent advice and certainly not allowed.

 

[Matty]

I thought the ability to provide facts was things along the lines of distance to green, location of the pin.

In this scenario saying "It's very boggy where that ball is going" I would have thought would be fine as it's factual information about the course - a bit like telling someone there's a bunker down there too.

Suggesting in anyway that play of a provisional is a possibility is in the first instance something that the player themselves should know and secondly could be construed as offering advice or opinion.

So, I think the OPs question could be a strict breach of the rules but I'm quite happy to be corrected!

 

[Jay1]

so wasn't the only one who was a bit unsure on where we would stand with this then

It seems very harsh that suggesting hitting a provisional would be a breach of the rules, given the time taken on the alternative, when the player may have just lost sight of the ball, or not realise how bad it may have ended up. But given the wording of the rules it's clearly a very delicate one as to how you would word the "advice"

 

[Colin L]

To use that grand phrase from the Rules, I am virtually certain that suggesting a player play a provisional ball is not a breach of Rule 8-1 and am pretty sure I have read somewhere that this has been stated by Rules Boards. Considering that the sole purpose of the provisional ball is to save time, it is to everyone's advantage that a player who might not otherwise be thinking of playing a provisional is encouraged to do so. In particular, a player who has local knowledge of a part of the course and knows a ball is likely to be hard to find in it should pass on that knowledge and suggest a provisional to save everyone being held up by the long walk back.

 

[Leftie]

Saying something like "you might have trouble finding that one. I'd play another if I were you" is clearly advice.

Saying "you might have trouble finding that one. Do you want to play a provisional" or " you might want to play a provisional" surely isn't advice.

Semantics

 

[duncan mackie]

Saying something like "you might have trouble finding that one. I'd play another if I were you" is clearly advice.

Saying "you might have trouble finding that one. Do you want to play a provisional" or " you might want to play a provisional" surely isn't advice.

Semantics

basically yes

I can't find the reference material to support this but have always understood that it's fine indirectly influence the play of a provisional eg to ask whether someone intends to take a provisional or highlight the nature of the ground where you beleive they have gone, but unacceptable to directly influence their action eg if I were you I would take a provisonal here...

more common sense than semantics really though

 

[MashieNiblick]

To use that grand phrase from the Rules, I am virtually certain that suggesting a player play a provisional ball is not a breach of Rule 8-1 and am pretty sure I have read somewhere that this has been stated by Rules Boards. Considering that the sole purpose of the provisional ball is to save time, it is to everyone's advantage that a player who might not otherwise be thinking of playing a provisional is encouraged to do so. In particular, a player who has local knowledge of a part of the course and knows a ball is likely to be hard to find in it should pass on that knowledge and suggest a provisional to save everyone being held up by the long walk back.

I also think I have read this somewhere but couldn't find it in the decisions or FAQs.

My recollection is that it is not deemed to be influencing the player in determining his play per se because as Colin says, the aim of hitting a provisional is simply to speed up play for everyone, rather than confer any particular advantage on the player in question.

Would be interested in what the R&A say in reply to Ethan or if anyone else can recall seeing any advice from the R&A about this.

 

[Foxholer]

Another example where phrasing you statement as a question eliminates the possibility of being dinged for giving advice. So 'That ball might be hard to find. Do you want to play a Provisional' can never be considered advice.

And whole thread is based on the 'playing partner' actually being a 'fellow competitor' (or opponent). Giving/seeking advice to/from your partner (in a team) is allowed - unlike at home!