Provisional ball when original may be in a water hazard

[Flubster]

So today I hit my ball right and lost sight behind a tree on the front of a pond. The area where it would have landed is a spur of land between a pond and a ditch. The spur can only be accessed by walking around the pond and back in front of the green. I walked up to the pond in line with my shot but couldn’t see my ball on the spur of land across the pond, that would be the only place my ball could have been. In order to save time I hit a provisional on to the green after dropping by the pond. When I went to look for my original ball after walking around the pond. I mentioned my intentions to a playing partner who said I couldn’t do that as the ball I played can’t be a provisional as the original would be in a water hazard?! I didn’t see this as correct as it would either be in the water hazard or I would find it and play it. It couldn’t be lost anywhere other than in the hazard? Was I wrong to play a provisional?

 

[robinthehood]

Seems a bit of an odd thing to do. If you're certain your in the hazard then drop a ball accordingly. If you're not then it's back to where you played from under stroke and distance .

 

[doublebogey7]

You may only play a provisional if your ball might be either lost outside of a penalty area or be out of bounds. Additionally, you must announce your intention to play a provisional ball before doing so. Rule 18.3 https://www.randa.org/en/rog/2019/rules/the-rules-of-golf/rule-18

 

[rulefan]

I hit a provisional on to the green after dropping by the pond.

If you play a provisional it must be from where your previous stroke was made.

 

[duncan mackie]

Pulling together the various issues, and responses....
1. You may play a provisional ball for a ball that may be lost or in a penalty area - but if you do so you will require additional information to evidence that your ball was in fact in the penalty area because if, at the time you play the provisional, you have the necessary certainty that the ball was lost in the penalty area you can't play a provisional! A bit of a catch 22 🤔
2. If you dropped a ball under the penalty area relief options you cannot proceed as a provisional (there is a rare LR that if in place would permit it but let's not get involved in discussion on that unless it was in place...).
3. As presented you have played from a wrong place if you haven't established that your ball is in the penalty area when you play, or are playing under the appropriate relief option if you have (ie it's not a provisional).

 

[rulie]

Pulling together the various issues, and responses....
1. You may play a provisional ball for a ball that may be lost or in a penalty area - but if you do so you will require additional information to evidence that your ball was in fact in the penalty area because if, at the time you play the provisional, you have the necessary certainty that the ball was lost in the penalty area you can't play a provisional! A bit of a catch 22 🤔
2. If you dropped a ball under the penalty area relief options you cannot proceed as a provisional (there is a rare LR that if in place would permit it but let's not get involved in discussion on that unless it was in place...).
3. As presented you have played from a wrong place if you haven't established that your ball is in the penalty area when you play, or are playing under the appropriate relief option if you have (ie it's not a provisional).

I don't think that is correct. You cannot play a provisional ball for a ball in a penalty area (other than if the Model Local Rule is in effect). Any second ball played when the original is in a penalty area cannot be a provisional, regardless of what was stated by the player, and that second ball becomes the ball in play; the original ball is no longer in play regardless of where it may be found.

 

[Foxholer]

...Was I wrong to play a provisional?

Yes!

 

[rulefan]

So today I hit my ball right and lost sight behind a tree on the front of a pond. The area where it would have landed is a spur of land between a pond and a ditch. The spur can only be accessed by walking around the pond and back in front of the green. I walked up to the pond in line with my shot but couldn’t see my ball on the spur of land across the pond, that would be the only place my ball could have been.

If a ball might be lost outside a penalty area or be out of bounds, to save time the player may play another ball provisionally under penalty of stroke and distance (see Rule 14.6).
But if the player is aware that the only possible place the original ball could be lost is in a penalty area, a provisional ball is not allowed
NB the subtle but important difference to the statement in post#6

In order to save time I hit a provisional on to the green after dropping by the pond.

Before the stroke is made, the player must announce that he or she is going to play a provisional ball:
The ball must be played from where the original was played.

When I went to look for my original ball after walking around the pond. I mentioned my intentions to a playing partner who said I couldn’t do that as the ball I played can’t be a provisional as the original would be in a water hazard?! I didn’t see this as correct as it would either be in the water hazard or I would find it and play it. It couldn’t be lost anywhere other than in the hazard? Was I wrong to play a provisional?

If you know or are sure the ball is in the penalty area (water hazard) you may not play a provisional, you must play under rule 17.

 

[duncan mackie]

I don't think that is correct. You cannot play a provisional ball for a ball in a penalty area (other than if the Model Local Rule is in effect). Any second ball played when the original is in a penalty area cannot be a provisional, regardless of what was stated by the player, and that second ball becomes the ball in play; the original ball is no longer in play regardless of where it may be found.

I assure you it is correct.

A ball that "may be lost or in a penalty area" is not a ball known to be in a penalty area.
That would be a ball in a penalty area.

 

[rulefan]

You may play a provisional ball for a ball that may be lost or in a penalty area

1. You may play a provisional ball for a ball that may be lost

2. You may play a provisional ball for a ball in a penalty area

3. You may play a provisional ball for a ball that may be in a penalty area

 

[duncan mackie]

You may play a provisional ball for a ball that may be lost or in a penalty area

1. You may play a provisional ball for a ball that may be lost

2. You may play a provisional ball for a ball in a penalty area

3. You may play a provisional ball for a ball that may be in a penalty area

If this was an R & A quiz question I would say that 2 i's the false one (as presented)?

 

[rulefan]

Yes. I was pointing out the possible ways of reading your words as opposed to the RBs.

 

[duncan mackie]

Yes. I was pointing out the possible ways of reading your words as opposed to the RBs.

Ah, that would be 1 or 3 then 👍

 

[brfcfan]

I assure you it is correct.

A ball that "may be lost or in a penalty area" is not a ball known to be in a penalty area.
That would be a ball in a penalty area.

Duncan, you have to be 95% certain that a ball has gone in a penalty area to be able to claim relief, surely by playing a provisional this is evidence enough that you are not 95% certain so if original ball is not found then you would have to carry on with the provisional? Is this correct?

 

[robinthehood]

Duncan, you have to be 95% certain that a ball has gone in a penalty area to be able to claim relief, surely by playing a provisional this is evidence enough that you are not 95% certain so if original ball is not found then you would have to carry on with the provisional? Is this correct?

What that op did was wrong. You play a provisional from where you hit the last shot. Not from where you think your ball may be lost.
And in this case if he's certain it's in the penalty area he plays according to the rules governing that. If not he walks back and plays again under stroke and distance

 

[duncan mackie]

Duncan, you have to be 95% certain that a ball has gone in a penalty area to be able to claim relief, surely by playing a provisional this is evidence enough that you are not 95% certain so if original ball is not found then you would have to carry on with the provisional? Is this correct?

Yes.

Whilst new evidence may come to light in the search, your starting point would need such evidence to change from uncertain as to whether the ball was lost in the penalty area (and playing a provisional) to being certain it was lost in the penalty area (and playing under a relief option for that).

 

[*TQ*]

Have I understood correctly; you took a drop as if the ball was in the penalty area, played it but with the intention of playing your original ball should you find it after playing the shot?

My understanding would be you can say what you want, just because you've said you're playing a provisional when you're not allowed to doesn't mean you've broken any rules (yet!) the only way you would have broken the rules in this situation is if you had found your original ball and played it as when you played the "provisonal" you were in fact putting a second ball in play and the original ball was then "dead".

 

[robinthehood]

Cch

Have I understood correctly; you took a drop as if the ball was in the penalty area, played it but with the intention of playing your original ball should you find it after playing the shot?

My understanding would be you can say what you want, just because you've said you're playing a provisional when you're not allowed to doesn't mean you've broken any rules (yet!) the only way you would have broken the rules in this situation is if you had found your original ball and played it as when you played the "provisonal" you were in fact putting a second ball in play and the original ball was then "dead".

Chances are the erroneous provisional was hit from the wrong place.

 

[duncan mackie]

Have I understood correctly; you took a drop as if the ball was in the penalty area, played it but with the intention of playing your original ball should you find it after playing the shot?

My understanding would be you can say what you want, just because you've said you're playing a provisional when you're not allowed to doesn't mean you've broken any rules (yet!) the only way you would have broken the rules in this situation is if you had found your original ball and played it as when you played the "provisonal" you were in fact putting a second ball in play and the original ball was then "dead".

I am afraid not, as posted by robinthehood.

The relevant rules here are as follows -
1. 18.3
2. Penalty as 18.1 under 18.3
3. 14.6
4. Penalty as 14.7 under 14.6

All as soon as the dropped ball was played as set out in the post.

Continuing with the original ball would bring penalties in addition to those already incurred...

 

[backwoodsman]

To the OP.

You hit a ball, which you lost sight of as to where it ended up. It could have been in the pond. It could have have been in the ditch. It could have been in neither. The only way of truly knowing where it is, would be to find it. So, your options are limited.

As it may be lost, you could have played a provisional from where you originally played the stroke. Or you could go forward, find the ball, and having done so, take it from there. If you don't find it, your only option is to go back & play another ball. There is nowhere forward of the original spot that you can legitimately drop a provisional.

What you can't do, is go forward and think "it might be in the pond, so just in case, l'll drop one here and play it, then go round the far side for a look, and continue from there if il find it (and abandon the ""temporary" ball l played)".