Provisional and water hazards

[woody69]

Played a friendly game today and on one hole (par 3) FC hit his tee shot over a WH towards the green of a large pond and it appeared to fall into the reeds on the far side, i.e. in the water hazard. He said he wanted to play a "provisional", (in reality his penalty drop) on this side of the pond in case his ball had gone in, i.e. to save time. I said he wasn't allowed to do that as you can't play a provisional in this situation. He thought it was stupid you had to go around the pond to find the ball wasn;t there, just to go back and play a shot from the correct place (due to the options available due to WH dropping)

He tried to claim he should be able to play it because if his ball was in the WH he'd have to come back and play it anyway and he's just saving time and if he finds it has just creeped over the reeds and is found then he'd just abandon the "Provisional". He didn't seem to understand the reason why a provisional wasn't allowed in these circumstances.

Can anyone succinctly articulate the reasons why such a time saver isn't allowed? I tried, but obviously failed to convince him.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I thought you could play a provisional any time you believe the ball could be lost etc ?

 

[anotherdouble]

You are correct Woody but did you check the back of the card to see if a local rule was in place that allowed a provisional on this particular hole. The only other thing your pp could have done was to say the ball may be lost in any reeds outside of the hazard and then a provisional would have been allowed

 

[rulefan]

If he knows or is virtually certain the ball is in the WH then he cannot play a provisional. He must therefore play under rule 26-1 or play it as it lies.

If he was permitted to play a provisional, it is possible that he may, when he gets there, decide that the other options to playing again from the tee are preferable. It would be against the principle of being able to choose between two balls if he could choose the better of his first or second ball.

 

[BTatHome]

Because in his situation he could have a choice of which ball to play (effectively having two balls in play and deciding which way to proceed), and that's not allowed.

 

[pbrown7582]

I thought you could play a provisional any time you believe the ball could be lost etc ?

Except when the ball is in a water hazard.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Except when the ball is in a water hazard.

What if you are unsure if it's in the hazard ?

 

[pbrown7582]

What if you are unsure if it's in the hazard ?

You can then play a provisional its only if its certain or virtually certain you cant.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

You can then play a provisional its only if its certain or virtually certain you cant.

Cheers - always a learning day :thup:

 

[rulefan]

[h=2]27-2/1[/h] [h=4]Provisional Ball Serving as Ball in Play If Original Ball Unplayable or in Water Hazard[/h]Q.May a player announce that a second ball he is going to play is both (a) a provisional ball in case the original ball is lost outside a water hazard or out of bounds and (b) the ball in play in case the original ball is unplayable or in a water hazard?

[h=2]27-2a/2[/h] [h=4]Provisional Ball Played Solely in Belief Original Ball Might Be in Water Hazard[/h]Q.A player's tee shot might be in a water hazard, but clearly it is not lost outside a water hazard or out of bounds. The player announces that, since his ball might be in the hazard, he is going to play a provisional ball and he does so. Rule 27-2a seems to prohibit a provisional ball in the circumstances. What is the ruling?

A.The player did not play a provisional ball which, according to the Definition of "Provisional Ball," is a ball played under Rule 27-2 for a ball which may be lost outside a water hazard or may be out of bounds. The second ball from the tee was in play since it was not a provisional ball.

[h=2]27-2a/2.2[/h] [h=4]Possibility That Original Ball Is in Water Hazard May Not Preclude Play of Provisional Ball[/h]Q.Is it true that, if a player's original ball may have come to rest in a water hazard, the player is precluded from playing a provisional ball?

A.No. Even though the original ball may be in a water hazard, the player is entitled to play a provisional ball if the original ball might also be lost outside the water hazard or out of bounds. In such a case, if the original ball is found in the water hazard, the provisional ball must be abandoned - Rule 27-2c.

 

[Three]

I've played in tournaments where the Water Hazards / Lateral Hazards are such that a Tournament Rule is introduced to allow us the option of playing a Provisional to save time.

 

[rulefan]

I've played in tournaments where the Water Hazards / Lateral Hazards are such that a Tournament Rule is introduced to allow us the option of playing a Provisional to save time.

I suspect they were 'tournaments' rather than Tournaments.

 

[Three]

I suspect they were 'tournaments' rather than Tournaments.

Sorry I don't understand.??

 

[woody69]

If he knows or is virtually certain the ball is in the WH then he cannot play a provisional. He must therefore play under rule 26-1 or play it as it lies.

If he was permitted to play a provisional, it is possible that he may, when he gets there, decide that the other options to playing again from the tee are preferable. It would be against the principle of being able to choose between two balls if he could choose the better of his first or second ball.

His argument was he would either find it just outside the WH or not. He said if it was found outside, his "provisional" would be abandoned and he'd continue with his original. If it wasn't found, he'd say it was in the WH and his "provisional" becomes the ball in play. Effectively his provisional isn't a provisional at all. It's his penalty drop to save the time, so he doesn't have to go around the WH, discover for certain it hadn't cleared the reeds and be forced to return back around the WH to drop his penalty drop. Effectively speeding up play.

 

[MashieNiblick]

As indicated above, normally you can't play a provisional on the basis that a ball may be lost in a WH, as described. However the issue identified in the OP is recognised in the Rules which allow a club to have a local Rule in place to allow a provisional to be played in these sorts of situations.

1. Water Hazards; Ball Played Provisionally Under Rule 26-1

If a water hazard (including a lateral water hazard) is of such size and shape and/or located in such a position that:

(i) it would be impracticable to determine whether the ball is in the hazard or to do so would unduly delay play, and
(ii) if the original ball is not found, it is known or virtually certain that it is in the water hazard,

the Committee may introduce a Local Rule permitting the play of a ball provisionally under Rule 26-1. The ball is played provisionally under any of the applicable options under Rule 26-1 or any applicable Local Rule. In such a case, if a ball is played provisionally and the original ball is in a water hazard, the player may play the original ball as it lies or continue with the ball played provisionally, but he may not proceed under Rule 26-1 with regard to the original ball. In these circumstances, the following Local Rule is recommended:

“If there is doubt whether a ball is in or is lost in the water hazard (specify location), the player may play another ball provisionally under any of the applicable options in Rule 26-1.
If the original ball is found outside the water hazard, the player must continue play with it.
If the original ball is found in the water hazard, the player may either play the original ball as it lies or continue with the ball played provisionally under Rule 26-1.
If the original ball is not found or identified within the five-minute search period, the player must continue with the ball played provisionally.
PENALTY FOR BREACH OF LOCAL RULE:
Match play – Loss of hole; Stroke play – Two strokes.”​

The player may have played at a club where such a rule was in place.

If there isn't such an LR in place, from the description of the hazard, it seems it might make sense if one was introduced.

 

[Foxholer]

I've played in tournaments where the Water Hazards / Lateral Hazards are such that a Tournament Rule is introduced to allow us the option of playing a Provisional to save time.

There's a specimen LR in the Rules (Appendix 1) for just such a condition.

Thorndon Park applies it to their 3rd hole.

 

[ManinBlack]

His argument was he would either find it just outside the WH or not. He said if it was found outside, his "provisional" would be abandoned and he'd continue with his original. If it wasn't found, he'd say it was in the WH and his "provisional" becomes the ball in play. Effectively his provisional isn't a provisional at all. It's his penalty drop to save the time, so he doesn't have to go around the WH, discover for certain it hadn't cleared the reeds and be forced to return back around the WH to drop his penalty drop. Effectively speeding up play.

It has to be known or "virtually certain" that the ball is in the hazard. If it couldn't be found inside or outside the hazard he must assume it's lost so the provisional would be the ball in play. However, if the ball could be identified as being in the hazard then the provisional could be used. Sounds like your pp was right for the wrong reason.

 

[woody69]

It has to be known or "virtually certain" that the ball is in the hazard. If it couldn't be found inside or outside the hazard he must assume it's lost so the provisional would be the ball in play. However, if the ball could be identified as being in the hazard then the provisional could be used. Sounds like your pp was right for the wrong reason.

We saw the ball land just through the reeds. There is only one place it will be if we can't find it on the bank the other side of the reeds and that is in the WH, so I think it is fair to say we could be "virtually certain" it is in the water hazard. This isn't one of the scenarios where you're hitting blind so by the letter of the law (and unless there is a LR in place) a provisional simply isn't allowed.

He argued that he should be able to effectively take his penalty drop (which he incorrectly referred to as a provisional) before going around the pond to see if his original ball made it across. If it didn't, he argued playing the drop early before confirming it was needed meant he didn't have to go back to play the drop. I could kind of see his point and I see a LR can be implemented to cover such a scenario.

 

[Foxholer]

We saw the ball land just through the reeds. There is only one place it will be if we can't find it on the bank the other side of the reeds and that is in the WH, so I think it is fair to say we could be "virtually certain" it is in the water hazard. This isn't one of the scenarios where you're hitting blind so by the letter of the law (and unless there is a LR in place) a provisional simply isn't allowed.

He argued that he should be able to effectively take his penalty drop (which he incorrectly referred to as a provisional) before going around the pond to see if his original ball made it across. If it didn't, he argued playing the drop early before confirming it was needed meant he didn't have to go back to play the drop. I could kind of see his point and I see a LR can be implemented to cover such a scenario.

This seems precisely the conditions and situation where that LR would be appropriate! And for exactly the reasons he was arguing!