Premier League 2019-2020 we’re off

[Papas1982]

Making a meal of it is a form of simulation surely? it’s cheating.

In association football, diving is an attempt by a player to gain an unfair advantage by falling to the ground and possibly feigning an injury, to give the impression that a foul has been committed. Dives are often used to exaggerate the amount of contact present in a challenge.

The bold bit is key imo. If a foul has occurred then they aren't gaining an unfair advantage, no matter how frustrating the histrionics are.

Imo if a player goes to ground under no contact and appeals, its a dive. They can't claim to be avoiding a tackle if they've appealled. Imo they've not go grounds to defend that action and should face retrospective punishment. Whether the pen is given or not.

 

[Deleted member 1740]

And every single player does it - doesn’t mean it’s not a foul or a penalty. If there is no touch then it’s a dive or simulation that needs to be stopped. There have been a number of occasions where a player has been fouled but didn’t go down and the ref doesn’t blow or give the penalty - which team loses out there ? That’s why players now go down when they are fouled - to ensure the foul is given. It’s not great for the sport but until refs blow up then players will continue to do it and that’s all players

Doesnt justify it though phil.

If that goes against us I'm fuming and no doubt others would be too if it goes against their team. But these pens have consistently been given over the last 10/15yrs and it's now "part" of the game, something I'm not comfortable with.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Doesnt justify it though phil.

If that goes against us I'm fuming and no doubt others would be too if it goes against their team. But these pens have consistently been given over the last 10/15yrs and it's now "part" of the game, something I'm not comfortable with.

It’s a foul though , the player has been impended and the ref should blow up when the foul happens not when the player goes down , if that happens against us and the foul has been committed then what can we complain about. He didn’t “encourage” the touch or made sure the touch happen or any of that other stuff that’s mentioned - I would be more angry at the player making the poor attempt of the tackle when there is no danger.

 

[ColchesterFC]

In association football, diving is an attempt by a player to gain an unfair advantage by falling to the ground and possibly feigning an injury, to give the impression that a foul has been committed. Dives are often used to exaggerate the amount of contact present in a challenge.

The bold bit is key imo. If a foul has occurred then they aren't gaining an unfair advantage, no matter how frustrating the histrionics are.

Imo if a player goes to ground under no contact and appeals, its a dive. They can't claim to be avoiding a tackle if they've appealled. Imo they've not go grounds to defend that action and should face retrospective punishment. Whether the pen is given or not.

The bold I've added seems to suggest that it can be both a foul and a dive. Can a ref give a foul and still book the player for diving? For example if a player has been obstructed and then falls to the floor holding his face when there has been no contact with his head. Could the ref give an indirect free kick for the obstruction and then book the player that has claimed to be hit in the face?

 

[Piece]

1. TAA tackle...tangling of legs, that's all
2. Salah tackle...yellow is right, I think he went for the ball.
3. Pen...I would be very disappointed if that was given against my team, put it that way. Well won by Mane 🤔😁

 

[Deleted member 15344]

The bold I've added seems to suggest that it can be both a foul and a dive. Can a ref give a foul and still book the player for diving? For example if a player has been obstructed and then falls to the floor holding his face when there has been no contact with his head. Could the ref give an indirect free kick for the obstruction and then book the player that has claimed to be hit in the face?

Yes they should which would go some way possibly to stop players making a meal of things but then the refs have to give those fouls etc- because if the players stop making a meal and don’t get the free kick then you can see it starting again.

The question for is - would the ref have given that penalty yesterday without Mane throwing himself to the ground ?

 

[Papas1982]

The bold I've added seems to suggest that it can be both a foul and a dive. Can a ref give a foul and still book the player for diving? For example if a player has been obstructed and then falls to the floor holding his face when there has been no contact with his head. Could the ref give an indirect free kick for the obstruction and then book the player that has claimed to be hit in the face?

I'd love to see a ref do just that. I suppose the get out could be wording of exagerating the contact in a challenge, they could argue a challenge is a fair tackle so the exaggeration is a dive. As opposed to exagerating after a foul..

 

[Papas1982]

Yes they should which would go some way possibly to stop players making a meal of things but then the refs have to give those fouls etc- because if the players stop making a meal and don’t get the free kick then you can see it starting again.

The question for is - would the ref have given that penalty yesterday without Mane throwing himself to the ground ?

I think this season yes. Because it would have gone to VAR and the kick (foul) is still present.

 

[ColchesterFC]

The question for is - would the ref have given that penalty yesterday without Mane throwing himself to the ground ?

Assuming Mane didn't go down - The other question is would VAR have given it if the ref hadn't? And would VAR have overturned it if the ref had given it? I think that the answer to both is probably not as they seem reluctant to overturn the refs decisions.

 

[clubchamp98]

Any thoughts on Trents challenge?

Slightly different as both were fighting for the ball pushing and pulling.
But it didn’t look good in slow motion.
It could have easy been red but think yellow was just about right.
But given where Tielemens was by the corner flag it was unnecessary.


Seen Coleman’s in Everton game that was a red.

I have always said any player playing the man from behind “ professional foul” no intention of playing the ball ,just to stop a counter attack like Chourdreys yesterday should be red.
Just pull his shirt, arm, there’s no need for that.

 

[clubchamp98]

If this was the first minute of the game and Mane was in the middle of the pitch he stays on his feet and carries on.

But it’s the 95th minute, his team need a goal, he’s in the penalty area, facing away from goal, surrounded by opponents, the chance of a goal has gone, he does whatever he can to make sure there is contact , any contact, then goes down, rolls around and forgets what leg he cheated with as he holds the wrong one, Clearly it was convincing as he conned the ref and VAR is reluctant to override a refs judgement.

And by the letter of the law as Stu pointed out , contact however small seems to satisfy criteria nowadays for a pen. Whilst that mindset exists it’s open season for people like Mane I’m afraid.

The one person you havnt criticised is Albrighton for being stupid enough to kick Mane in the box ,in the 95th minute and giving the ref a decision to make.

 

[clubchamp98]

Yes they should which would go some way possibly to stop players making a meal of things but then the refs have to give those fouls etc- because if the players stop making a meal and don’t get the free kick then you can see it starting again.

The question for is - would the ref have given that penalty yesterday without Mane throwing himself to the ground ?

NO that’s why players do it.
It’s the poor officiating that’s part of the problem.
The players will do this until refs start giving pens that should be given but are not.

Can you imagine a ref giving a pen then booking the striker for diving , that won’t work imo.

 

[Orikoru]

I still think that was a penalty. Albrighton is on the wrong side, stupidly sticks a leg in and boots the back of his leg. Irrespective of what Mane does after that, it's a foul in the box.

Over the last couple of decades players learnt that refs often miss the fouls if they stay on their feet, by which time the chance they may have had is gone as well, so now they go down softly to highlight it. I'm sorry if you're one of the people who can't accept it, but the vast majority of attackers do that now so that's the way it is. Just because a player goes down easily, or even is looking for the foul in the first place, doesn't mean that the fact they WERE fouled is negated. It's the fault of the defender for making a poor challenge.

 

[clubchamp98]

I still think that was a penalty. Albrighton is on the wrong side, stupidly sticks a leg in and boots the back of his leg. Irrespective of what Mane does after that, it's a foul in the box.

Over the last couple of decades players learnt that refs often miss the fouls if they stay on their feet, by which time the chance they may have had is gone as well, so now they go down softly to highlight it. I'm sorry if you're one of the people who can't accept it, but the vast majority of attackers do that now so that's the way it is. Just because a player goes down easily, or even is looking for the foul in the first place, doesn't mean that the fact they WERE fouled is negated. It's the fault of the defender for making a poor challenge.

A very sensible post .

If anything I think this will happen more with VAR , if the ref misses the foul but the player goes down.
VAR will see the contact on replays and will tell the ref it’s a foul.
So can’t see it stopping.

 

[Liverbirdie]

If this was the first minute of the game and Mane was in the middle of the pitch he stays on his feet and carries on.

But it’s the 95th minute, his team need a goal, he’s in the penalty area, facing away from goal, surrounded by opponents, the chance of a goal has gone, he does whatever he can to make sure there is contact , any contact, then goes down, rolls around and forgets what leg he cheated with as he holds the wrong one, Clearly it was convincing as he conned the ref and VAR is reluctant to override a refs judgement.

And by the letter of the law as Stu pointed out , contact however small seems to satisfy criteria nowadays for a pen. Whilst that mindset exists it’s open season for people like Mane I’m afraid.

Specifically - are you saying that Mane puts his left leg in a "strange" position?

2 foot away from his right foot, a normal position if passing or shooting.

1. Did he go down a bit easy I'll be honest and say yes, but is his leg "buckled" by Albrighton - also yes. Albrighton is also at least 2 foot away from the ball.

I also hate diving, but there was decent enough contact here IMHO.

Also bear in mind that mane was whacked last week and got nothing, one thing you have to admit is that refs more or less base all decision-maikng now on a player going down (or not). Mane robbed a Leicester defender of a ball in the box yesterday in the first half, and the ref give a foul against him, even though he didnt even stick a leg out, he just run alongside the defender, and was faster. If refs gave fouls for fouls where the player has tried to stay on his feet, players may try to more, but they dont, so players go down. How many times do you see 6ft 4 13 1/2 stone centre halves go down as soon as they feel contact to get a foul - loads. I'd never of taken that chance, but so many times refs give it if players hit the deck - courtesy of Sepp Blatter ru(i)nning the game for 10 years.

Mane's post foul reaction was embarassing, but he didnt "do a Pires" with his left foot, and not getting a blatant pen the previous week may have led to him thinking "sod this for a game of soldiers", next time, I'm making the most of it.

 

[Liverbirdie]

Soyuncu was coming to Arsenal only recently, until they pulled the plug on the deal. Obviously our CBs are so much better we didn't need him.

😓

He was great for them yesterday, plays out from the back also.

 

[Liverbirdie]

Making a meal of it is a form of simulation surely? it’s cheating.

Well it happens 30 times a game in every premiership game now, so get used to it.

 

[Deleted member 1740]

Making a meal of it is a form of simulation surely? it’s cheating.

I thought simulation is when you go down without any contact??

Hopefully our resident ref can confirm 🤞

 

[Slime]

How does it sound bitter then when Salah has been injured by a very poor tackle

Because you were inferring that the whole team had set out to do a job on Salah, maybe even as a tactic!

 

[Slime]

Yes they should which would go some way possibly to stop players making a meal of things but then the refs have to give those fouls etc- because if the players stop making a meal and don’t get the free kick then you can see it starting again.

The question for is - would the ref have given that penalty yesterday without Mane throwing himself to the ground ?

So, your admitting that he cheated.