Premier League 2019-2020 we’re off

[Orikoru]

You missed out what Son did, a slide tackle from behind with no intention and no chance of playing the ball just taking the man out!

Because even you can’t claim he went for the ball!

Even if everything you just described is true, it's still a yellow card. Judge the action. Intent isn't in the laws.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

He’ll know the minds of professionals and we also had the statement that every pundit claimed the Red was wrong.

There will be differing "expert" witnesses, some better qualified than others.

However, I still cannot see where the Laws of Football state that the outcome determines the extent of the punishment.

After all we have all seen horrendous "studs up" challenges which have been rightly punished by a red card but, more by luck, there was no injury sustained.

Using the PL logic in those cases no red should have been issued.

 

[Orikoru]

We can debate this until the cows come home.
But for me the law needs changing to “ professional foul with no intention of playing the ball should be red.”
A genuine attempt for the ball is fine ,but can’t stand players who deliberately foul someone from behind.

I don't wholly disagree that, but it would be very hard to say for sure that a foul was deliberate in many cases. And as I said before, you would have grey areas with things like shirt-pulls which are deliberate, or simple blocking off of players which could lead to some very harsh red cards.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

There will be differing "expert" witnesses, some better qualified than others.

However, I still cannot see where the Laws of Football state that the outcome determines the extent of the punishment.

After all we have all seen horrendous "studs up" challenges which have been rightly punished by a red card but, more by luck, there was no injury sustained.

Using the PL logic in those cases no red should have been issued.

We all tend to choose the “expert” that helps our case.

 

[clubchamp98]

I don't wholly disagree that, but it would be very hard to say for sure that a foul was deliberate in many cases. And as I said before, you would have grey areas with things like shirt-pulls which are deliberate, or simple blocking off of players which could lead to some very harsh red cards.

Yes but it’s the referees job to determine the ones that are or not.

I actually agree that at the moment Sons red was not within the rules as written down but the ref has discretion within them rules and used it.

The Glendousi rugby tackle should have been red
They need to sort it out.

To say Son didn’t mean to injure Gomez means nothing.
The facts are he did with a reckless professional foul so deserved a red and I don’t think it will be overturned.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Even if everything you just described is true, it's still a yellow card. Judge the action. Intent isn't in the laws.

So none of the below could/might describe Son’s tackle.

SERIOUS FOUL PLAY
A tackle or challenge that endangers the safety of an opponent or uses excessive force or brutality must be sanctioned as serious foul play.

Any player who lunges at an opponent in challenging for the ball from the front, from the side or from behind using one or both legs, with excessive force or endangers the safety of an opponent is guilty of serious foul play.

 

[clubchamp98]

I don't wholly disagree that, but it would be very hard to say for sure that a foul was deliberate in many cases. And as I said before, you would have grey areas with things like shirt-pulls which are deliberate, or simple blocking off of players which could lead to some very harsh red cards.

Pulling a shirt and hacking him down from behind at full speed is chalk and cheese imo.

 

[Orikoru]

So none of the below could/might describe Son’s tackle.

SERIOUS FOUL PLAY
A tackle or challenge that endangers the safety of an opponent or uses excessive force or brutality must be sanctioned as serious foul play.

Any player who lunges at an opponent in challenging for the ball from the front, from the side or from behind using one or both legs, with excessive force or endangers the safety of an opponent is guilty of serious foul play.

He didn't use excessive force or brutality, take your emotion out of it and watch it again. He slide alongside/ just across him and tripped him. Excessive force means driving your studs into a player. If his intention was to bring him down, he used exactly the right amount of force - not excessive. Gomes was almost able to hurdle the challenge but not quite.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

He didn't use excessive force or brutality, take your emotion out of it and watch it again. He slide alongside/ just across him and tripped him. Excessive force means driving your studs into a player. If his intention was to bring him down, he used exactly the right amount of force - not excessive. Gomes was almost able to hurdle the challenge but not quite.

I’m out

 

[Orikoru]

Pulling a shirt and hacking him down from behind at full speed is chalk and cheese imo.

Right but you were saying deliberate fouls should be red cards, and pulling a shirt is deliberate. So you're already introducing grey areas. This is most likely why intent isn't currently in the laws, as it muddies the water rather than making things clearer.

 

[Orikoru]

I’m out

Finally! You really took some convincing.

 

[clubchamp98]

Right but you were saying deliberate fouls should be red cards, and pulling a shirt is deliberate. So you're already introducing grey areas. This is most likely why intent isn't currently in the laws, as it muddies the water rather than making things clearer.

I have been consistent all through this .
My stance is professional fouls where a man is running away and is brought down deliberately with no intent to get the ball.
Imo that should be red!
Most of these there is no injury but what happened to Gomez was avoidable.
There was no need for Sons trip .

Pulling shirts and blocking people off are deliberate fouls but I would not put them in the same category as this .
That’s where the ref comes in to distinguish between the two.

 

[Orikoru]

I have been consistent all through this .
My stance is professional fouls where a man is running away and is brought down deliberately with no intent to get the ball.
Imo that should be red!
Most of these there is no injury but what happened to Gomez was avoidable.
There was no need for Sons trip .

Pulling shirts and blocking people off are deliberate fouls but I would not put them in the same category as this .
That’s where the ref comes in to distinguish between the two.

The term 'professional foul' specifically referred to denying a goal-scoring opportunity though. So doing what you said is a red if the receiving player would have been in on goal. So you need another way to define it really. Perhaps it's just a case of redefining the whole 'excessive force' bit of the current law.

 

[clubchamp98]

Finally! You really took some convincing.

I don’t think you convinced him.
He’s just exasperated.

 

[Orikoru]

I don’t think you convinced him.
He’s just exasperated.

I know that, I was just being cheeky, you know me.

 

[clubchamp98]

The term 'professional foul' specifically referred to denying a goal-scoring opportunity though. So doing what you said is a red if the receiving player would have been in on goal. So you need another way to define it really. Perhaps it's just a case of redefining the whole 'excessive force' bit of the current law.

You know what I mean.
Call it what ever you like !
But the type of tackle Son did should be outlawed. (Unprofessional Foul ) will do.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Finally! You really took some convincing.

I’ll go back on my word and explain.
All day you’ve gone on about what’s not in the FA rules about the Ref changing his mind.
Then you give a description of “Excessive Force” which is your definition and not in the rules

Using excessive force” means that the player has far. exceeded the necessary use of force and is in danger of. injuring his opponent: − a player who uses excessive force shall be sent off.

I see no mention of studs!

You then describe Son’s actions as pre-meditated and him in full control of himself and somehow at the end put responsibility on Gomes for not quite hurdling the tackle!

Clubchamp is right, completely exasperated.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

You know what I mean.
Call it what ever you like !
But the type of tackle Son did should be outlawed. (Unprofessional Foul ) will do.

I can't remember when that term, professional foul, was first used, I think the 80's at a guess. Somehow it seems to justify and sanitise a deliberate foul. It should be called what it is, not dressed up as something acceptable.

I agree with you, a deliberate foul with no intention to play the ball should be a red.

 

[Orikoru]

I’ll go back on my word and explain.
All day you’ve gone on about what’s not in the FA rules about the Ref changing his mind.
Then you give a description of “Excessive Force” which is your definition and not in the rules

Using excessive force” means that the player has far. exceeded the necessary use of force and is in danger of. injuring his opponent: − a player who uses excessive force shall be sent off.

I see no mention of studs!

You then describe Son’s actions as pre-meditated and him in full control of himself and somehow at the end put responsibility on Gomes for not quite hurdling the tackle!

Clubchamp is right, completely exasperated.

Just think about the times you have heard the phrase excessive force used during football, and what they were referring to. I'd be shocked if it was ever somebody tripping someone up with a slide tackle.

You have this annoying habit of putting words in my mouth or trying to second guess what I really mean when I say things. (Or perhaps just twisting my words into something you have an answer to?) Why on earth would you infer that I was victim-blaming Gomes? I only added that to imply the tackle wasn't high or crunching, he just tripped him up - i.e. not excessive force.

 

[Norrin Radd]

FFS you lot take it to messaging it's bloody boring now as it was about five pages ago.

The player is injured after a tackle ,ref spits out the punishment . .get over it .