Phillip Hammond

[Deleted member 15344]

Yes.Morally.And Iraq, Afghan.

How do you "morally" claim a country ?

Both Iraq and Afghan run themselves now with their own elected governments - as is the wish of Libya

If by allowing the people in the country to have a say then I'm all for it :thup:

 

[HomerJSimpson]

Bloody shame, it's always those with nowt that seem to suffer most in these situations. Tragic.

Perfectly summed up

 

[Rumpokid]

How do you "morally" claim a country ?

Both Iraq and Afghan run themselves now with their own elected governments - as is the wish of Libya

If by allowing the people in the country to have a say then I'm all for it :thup:

Now you have got to be kidding if you believe those countries run themselves.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Acting like a Tyrant or protecting itself from NATO's advance? let's be honest if he wanted he could simply take it, don't forget what he did in Georgia.

NATO advancing ? I'm not sure what sort of danger the possess but by protecting themselves a lot of innocent lives have been lost and a country is in turmoil - right now don't see NATO causing harm in Ukraine and Crimea - but do see Putin and Russia causing harm to a lot of innocent people

 

[Deleted member 16999]

How do you "morally" claim a country ?

Both Iraq and Afghan run themselves now with their own elected governments - as is the wish of Libya

If by allowing the people in the country to have a say then I'm all for it :thup:

Surely you don't believe we got involved with these countries for the sake of the locals, OK it might not be claiming a country but it's certainly hopeing to bring the new Government and your side and having influences in the Region

 

[Deleted member 16999]

NATO advancing ? I'm not sure what sort of danger the possess but by protecting themselves a lot of innocent lives have been lost and a country is in turmoil - right now don't see NATO causing harm in Ukraine and Crimea - but do see Putin and Russia causing harm to a lot of innocent people

So having your "perceived" enemy on your doorstep and controlling access to the black sea and oil pipelines isn't anything for Putin to be concerned about?

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Now you have got to be kidding if you believe those countries run themselves.

👍👍👍👍

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Surely you don't believe we got involved with these countries for the sake of the locals, OK it might not be claiming a country but it's certainly hopeing to bring the new Government and your side and having influences in the Region

The reasons for going to Iraq and Afghan have been and will be debated until the end of time and will go round and round in circles with many different views that it's not worth dragging it all up again.

Been to both countries and see the difference we have made to people's lives over there - obviously everything is far from perfect and there will always be issues but a lot of people now have a better chance in life right now

I don't believe it's anywhere near in comparison to what Putin has and is doing in Ukraine/Crimea. But that's just my opinion from what I have seen and read. Putin to me is acting like a tyrant and lots of innocent people are dying because of it

 

[HomerJSimpson]

The reasons for going to Iraq and Afghan have been and will be debated until the end of time and will go round and round in circles with many different views that it's not worth dragging it all up again.

Been to both countries and see the difference we have made to people's lives over there - obviously everything is far from perfect and there will always be issues but a lot of people now have a better chance in life right now

I don't believe it's anywhere near in comparison to what Putin has and is doing in Ukraine/Crimea. But that's just my opinion from what I have seen and read. Putin to me is acting like a tyrant and lots of innocent people are dying because of it

No different to Sadam Hussain being a tyrant, Idi Amin, and a plethora of others across the globe. In this instance I can't see Putin ever allowing Ukraine an opportunity to make a democratic decision whether they want to be part of Europe or a Russian state/province or whatever. There's way too much at stake on military, economic, humanitarian etc levels. Of course its wrong, too many innocents will be killed needlessly and there will be not outcome, certainly not anytime soon

 

[Foxholer]

NATO advancing ? I'm not sure what sort of danger the possess but by protecting themselves a lot of innocent lives have been lost and a country is in turmoil - right now don't see NATO causing harm in Ukraine and Crimea - but do see Putin and Russia causing harm to a lot of innocent people

Try it the other way around then! Russia advancing (again). Oh that's what they are doing and Western Europe (and US) are seriously concerned. Seems to me the 'NATO good; Warsaw Pact bad' indoctrination has been very successful!

I don't believe that the Western governments are really so much concerned with the catastrophic loss of life as the change to the 'sphere of influence'! The humanitarian disaster, regrettably, simply seems an excuse imo! But that's maybe too much of the cynic in me!

 

[Rumpokid]

The reasons for going to Iraq and Afghan have been and will be debated until the end of time and will go round and round in circles with many different views that it's not worth dragging it all up again.

Been to both countries and see the difference we have made to people's lives over there - obviously everything is far from perfect and there will always be issues but a lot of people now have a better chance in life right now

I don't believe it's anywhere near in comparison to what Putin has and is doing in Ukraine/Crimea. But that's just my opinion from what I have seen and read. Putin to me is acting like a tyrant and lots of innocent people are dying because of it

What about the difference it has made to our lives in the UK, that involvement in the middle east has made???..Putin is no worse than the Blair creature..Blair was just more slimy.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

The reasons for going to Iraq and Afghan have been and will be debated until the end of time and will go round and round in circles with many different views that it's not worth dragging it all up again.

Been to both countries and see the difference we have made to people's lives over there - obviously everything is far from perfect and there will always be issues but a lot of people now have a better chance in life right now

I don't believe it's anywhere near in comparison to what Putin has and is doing in Ukraine/Crimea. But that's just my opinion from what I have seen and read. Putin to me is acting like a tyrant and lots of innocent people are dying because of it

And he knows we won't intervene, but we did in Iraq and Libya to remove a tyrant, Libya is currently in cack state and more innocent lives have been lost in Iraq since Saddam was ousted. Way too soon to say whether interefering was good or bad, history will be the judge of that.

 

[Foxholer]

The reasons for going to Iraq and Afghan have been and will be debated until the end of time and will go round and round in circles with many different views that it's not worth dragging it all up again.

Been to both countries and see the difference we have made to people's lives over there - obviously everything is far from perfect and there will always be issues but a lot of people now have a better chance in life right now

I don't believe it's anywhere near in comparison to what Putin has and is doing in Ukraine/Crimea. But that's just my opinion from what I have seen and read. Putin to me is acting like a tyrant and lots of innocent people are dying because of it

Perhaps you aren't aware of the huge increase (in Iraq) in the rates of congenital birth defects and the 40 fold increase in Cancer rates almost certainly caused by the use of Depleted Uranium shells. That's some difference alright.

It's certainly 'political manouvering', but I wouldn't call it any more tyrannical than many other conflicts. It's simply something 'the other side' is doing, while there are plenty of thing 'our own side' are no doubt doing (or not!) that are causing similar humanitarian issues!

 

[Deleted member 18588]

To simply claim it as part of Europe is ridiculous imo. I think it's significantly more Russian oriented than European, both in history and location. It's East of Poland, Hungary and Slovakia and nearly 20% of the population are Russian speakers for example!

But since 1991, there's been a gradual move towards Europe politically, with consequent, and understandable imo, anxiety by Putin.

I think its history prior to 1917 and beyond that date in the case of Western Ukraine would suggest that it is as European as Poland.

As far west as Rumania.

 

[c1973]

What about the difference it has made to our lives in the UK, that involvement in the middle east has made???..Putin is no worse than the Blair creature..Blair was just more slimy.

That's a reasonable question tbf.

There's plenty of people that (rightly or wrongly) feel our involvement was the catalyst for the current conflict with Isis etc.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

That's a reasonable question tbf.

There's plenty of people that (rightly or wrongly) feel our involvement was the catalyst for the current conflict with Isis etc.

Do you believe there was no threat from any Islamic Fundamentlist Group before 2001 ?

Before ISIS it was Al Queada - threat has always been there was a while from religious fundamentalists

 

[HomerJSimpson]

That's a reasonable question tbf.

There's plenty of people that (rightly or wrongly) feel our involvement was the catalyst for the current conflict with Isis etc.

I can see that. Was there such an Isis threat before we moved in? Definitely none of these gruesome beheadings and terrorist acts so I can see how the thinking goes. Are they right? Not sure. Think it runs much deeper

 

[Rumpokid]

Do you believe there was no threat from any Islamic Fundamentlist Group before 2001 ?

Before ISIS it was Al Queada - threat has always been there was a while from religious fundamentalists

ZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzz..Night night..Turn lights off please.

 

[Foxholer]

I think its history prior to 1917 and beyond that date in the case of Western Ukraine would suggest that it is as European as Poland.

As far west as Rumania.

Possibly. But you hadn't mentioned 'Western' Ukraine earlier. If you are making that division, then, imo, you are agreeing with the Donbass 'rebels' and Putin that it should be politically divided!

And who were the Brits (and others) fighting when Florence Nightingale and the Charge of the Light Brigade did their things!

Like much in that area, it's been successively conquered over that most divisive of concepts - religion, and access to 'Holy Lands'! It's changed hands more times than most countries, probably the most of any in fact! So this development is merely a continuation of history!

 

[c1973]

Do you believe there was no threat from any Islamic Fundamentlist Group before 2001 ?

Before ISIS it was Al Queada - threat has always been there was a while from religious fundamentalists

They only seemed to become a threat to us once the IRA ceased (sort of) being a threat to us imo. I'm not saying they weren't, just that's how I recall it.

It's good for Governments to have you more worried about / focused on external threats rather than what's going on in your own back yard imo. But I'm a bit of a cynic when it comes to our leaders intentions.

Anyway, that's straying from the thread topic.