Phenominal effort by the welsh

[paddyc]

Have to say a superb effort by the Wales rugby boys at the world cup. By far the better team, deserved to get to the final, but were robbed by an awful decision by the ref to send off their skipper.They were always up against it after that, I'm sure they would have won with 15 guys on the field.
Instead a crap french side have reached the final having already lost two games,where they will be hammered by aussies or the all blacks.
All you welsh forumers should be proud of your lads .

 

[HRC99]

They certainly gave it a go. Not so sure that the referee got it wrong. Don't get me wrong, it was a decision that decided the outcome and a brave call but I can't say I disagree.

As soon as I saw it, I said he's in trouble. If you take a player past the horizontal in the tackle, it is a yellow instantly and, if you drive him towards the ground, it's a red. It was definitely a yellow card at best and it looked to me like he moved to drive him down then stopped - but that's with the benefit of slow motion replays.

It looked red to me live but that is a massive call by the referee. At the end of the day, Warburton shouldn't have lifted him like that, he was rolling the dice when he did so and it cost his team a place in the World Cup Final. Just a shame that the referee was forced to take a decision like that that decided the outcome of such a massive game.

 

[sev112]

yes, lazy journalism by all the commentators - not one of tehm considered why teh ref may have felt it merited a red - i woudl have expected more balanced response

Still hard on wales who have done really well. I was hugely disappointed with Hook, Jones and phillips all the second half. Philips gets a bit of a let off for the try, but there were 2 times when the french were in troubel - the try, and straight after when wales came running at them. For the rest of teh game Hook and James kept kicking posession back to France, and Phillips spent half an hour at every ruck slowing eth game down more.

Also, everyone has been critcising WIlkinson's poor kicking, but 3 or 4 kicks were missed.

And whether you like it or not, France have done what everyone else in that half wanted - got to the final, especially when not playing well. Good luck to them. Unfortunately Australia will grind them down in the final.

Hugely impressed however by no-one from Wales team so far blaming teh decision - well done to them. Got on with it and fought it out; shame they didnt make it.

 

[User20205]

They certainly gave it a go. Not so sure that the referee got it wrong. Don't get me wrong, it was a decision that decided the outcome and a brave call but I can't say I disagree.

sorry but it was a shocking decision. It was careless, a penalty and a yellow card at worst. Warburton go him to horizontal and let him go.

I've never seen a red card for that, and to start in a WC semi final is nonsense. It decided the game

I wanted to support France, but they were truely awful. They have been all tournament apart from 40mins against England.

They are a poor team with some good individuals, coached by a muppet. They will get gubbed in the final.

I feel sorry for Wales, they would have given a much better account.

 

[HRC99]

sorry but it was a shocking decision. It was careless, a penalty and a yellow card at worst. Warburton go him to horizontal and let him go.

Sorry, but you're wrong. It is a red card under the laws. Others may not have interpreted it as strictly as Rolland did, but that kind of tackle, under the laws, is a red card. The intent doesn't matter. If you lift past the horizontal and either drive or drop, it is dangerous play and the penalty for dangerous play is a red card.

That kind of tackle is massively dangerous as it risks serious neck or spinal injury and, quite sensibly, the rules officials and referees have been trying to remove it from the game.

Moves to really crack down on those kind of tackles came after Mealamu and Umaga nailed Brian O'Driscoll in the first minute of the first test against the Lions in Christchurch in 2005. O'Driscoll lasted less than a minute as captain of the British Lions because of that tackle and suffered serious damage to his shoulder because of it.

I've never seen a red card for that, and to start in a WC semi final is nonsense. It decided the game

The real problem is consistency. There are huge inconsistencies between northern and southern hemisphere referees and this is another example of it. If all tackles like this were punished with a red, then no-one would complain.

You can't make allowance for the importance of the game or the time during the match. It's black or white. It's either dangerous play or not.

Sam Warburton made the tackle and he can complain all he likes but he was the one that picked Clerc up in that fashion. As I said, he rolled the dice and, unfortunately for him and his country, he got sent off but he was the one who put the referee in the position where he had to make that call - no-one else.

Wales deserved to win undoubtedly and, unfortunately, the game will only be remembered for Rolland's decision. But, if Warburton doesn't lift him, then there's no question of any kind of card. But he did and he and his country have paid for it.

 

[User20205]

Sorry, but you're wrong. It is a red card under the laws. Others may not have interpreted it as strictly as Rolland did, but that kind of tackle, under the laws, is a red card. The intent doesn't matter. If you lift past the horizontal and either drive or drop, it is dangerous play and the penalty for dangerous play is a red card.

You can't catagorically say I'm wrong, the laws are open to subjective interpretation.

We aren't going to agree, buy a paper tomorrow & see what the consensus opinion is.

You can quote the laws all you want. The definition is dangerous, that tackle wasn't. The O'Driscoll tackle (ruck clearance with no action taken) was dangerous. The Warburton tackle was careless. A yellow card was ample punishment.

A referee decided the Australia/South Africa quarter final, and a referee has decided the Wales/France semi, that is wrong !

 

[CMAC]

oh dear another "we lost because of the referee" thread...............

surely it was because the French scored more points

 

[User20205]

oh dear another "we lost because of the referee" thread...............

surely it was because the French scored more points

We didn't lose anything, I'm not Welsh. I'm more bothered about the inconsistency of refereeing deciding games.

If you've got nothing to add to the debate wind your neck in !

 

[HRC99]

You can't catagorically say I'm wrong, the laws are open to subjective interpretation.

We aren't going to agree, buy a paper tomorrow & see what the consensus opinion is.

You can quote the laws all you want. The definition is dangerous, that tackle wasn't. The O'Driscoll tackle (ruck clearance with no action taken) was dangerous. The Warburton tackle was careless. A yellow card was ample punishment.

A referee decided the Australia/South Africa quarter final, and a referee has decided the Wales/France semi, that is wrong !

Law 10.4

"Lifting a player from the ground and dropping or driving that player into the ground whilst that player's feet are still off the ground such that the player's head and/or upper body come into contact with the ground is dangerous play."

There is little subjective about that.

The referee cannot win. He enforces the law as instructed and he's ruined the game. He fails to enforce it and he's pilloried by the other side and probably punished by the referee management.

The shame is that he's been put in that position and that will define his career most probably. Warburton has to take responsibility for his actions too. As soon as he lifts him, he's getting 10 minutes at best.

I couldn't agree more about the Australia/South Africa game, Bryce Lawrence is manifestly a sub-standard referee and has proven that time and time again.

 

[User20205]

I didn't realise I was getting into a debate with someone who has memorised the laws !!

The dangerous/careless argument is subjective, to my mind there was no malice in the tackle.

It seems a strange time for Rolland to start a one man campaign against borderline dangerous play. A yellow card would have been the common sense decision. There is no place in the game for a spear tackle, Warburtons' wasn't anything approaching that.

 

[surefire]

We aren't going to agree, buy a paper tomorrow & see what the consensus opinion is.

I don't think my copy of l'equipe will differ from HRC99s opinon!

 

[User20205]

i don't think my copy of l'equipe will differ from hrc99s opinon!

....................

 

[HRC99]

I didn't realise I was getting into a debate with someone who has memorised the laws !!

The dangerous/careless argument is subjective, to my mind there was no malice in the tackle.

It seems a strange time for Rolland to start a one man campaign against borderline dangerous play. A yellow card would have been the common sense decision. There is no place in the game for a spear tackle, Warburtons' wasn't anything approaching that.

I can barely remember my name most of the time! Just did a bit of digging and to add to that:

Paddy O'Brien, IRB Referees Manager issued a memo to all the referees:

"In 2007, the IRB Council approved a ruling, which essentially made it clear that tackles involving a player being lifted off the ground and tipped horizontally and were then either forced or dropped to the ground are illegal and constitute dangerous play.

"At a subsequent IRB high performance seminar referees were advised that for these types of tackles they were to start at red card as a sanction and work backwards. Unfortunately these types of tackles are still being made and the purpose of this memorandum is to emphasise that they must be dealt with severely by referees."

The intent is relevant to it or whether it is careless. It is simply, did he pick him up and did he drive/drop him? If so, the default sanction is a red card.

As you say, it is a little strange that Warburton was the first to go for this offence in the World Cup or even prior to that. I can think of a couple that Tuilagi made that were pretty dicey too but he obviously got lucky.

You have to wonder whether the referees had been spoken to before the semi-finals and told to deal severely with this kind of tackle. It wouldn't surprise me at all if that was the case.

I have a friend who is a Football League referee and they are always getting specific instructions on how to deal with particular types of incident. If you don't follow those instructions to the letter, you are dropped for a period of time. They don't mess around.

I agree, it wasn't an out and out spear tackle in that he didn't finish the movement and drive Clerc into the ground but Clerc could still have been badly injured in any case.

I can pretty much write the headlines myself as "Wales robbed" is a much better headline than "Ref gets it right".

It is very much like DOGSO in football. Everyone went nuts to begin with when people were getting straight reds for fairly innocuous challenges but now everyone is used to it. I think the IRB will now have no choice but clamp right down on these tackles so that they don't hang Rolland out to dry.

No-one would have blamed Rolland if he'd given him 10 minutes and Warburton would probably have been cited and missed the final anyway. But Rolland applied the letter of the law and is getting hammered for it.

Who'd be a referee!

 

[welshjim22]

It was a shocking decision not all the commentators could be wrong especially all the neutrals. Certainly a penalty and probably a yellow although it didn't look intentional, and i have seen games and replays where it looked that way. Personally the ref should never have been in that position. How did the IRB allow a half Irish half French, he has French father, ref be on the pitch. The red card was out to quick for my liking. So many sports have had incidents where people talk about how video refs could be a positive change yet twice this world cup Wales have lost out when a video ref could have aided refs in avoiding bad decisions.

The boys did Wales proud by continuing to give there all. As Gatland said with two great teams playing each other one with a player sent off the other team should comfortable win. They didn't and in fact if it wasn't for a bit of bad kicking Wales would have won and in all likelyhood been Champions.

Lost all interest in the final now unless of course France lose by a shocking scoreline.

 

[welshjim22]

People have commented on the new laws stating that refs should start at a red card and work backwards. So where exactly was the working backwards. He jumped for a red card when the replay looks alot less severe than simlar incidents in the past. He should have checked the replays and given a more measured approach yellow card most likely. If i was that French/Irish ref i wouldn't fancy a trip to Cardiff in the six nations without the SAS as close protection.

 

[CMAC]

If you've got nothing to add to the debate wind your neck in !

oh dear we seem to have hit a nerve there big fella, its just a comment, Chill baby!
its attitude like that that people dont like on forums

 

[HRC99]

It was a shocking decision not all the commentators could be wrong especially all the neutrals. Certainly a penalty and probably a yellow although it didn't look intentional, and i have seen games and replays where it looked that way. Personally the ref should never have been in that position. How did the IRB allow a half Irish half French, he has French father, ref be on the pitch. The red card was out to quick for my liking. So many sports have had incidents where people talk about how video refs could be a positive change yet twice this world cup Wales have lost out when a video ref could have aided refs in avoiding bad decisions.

The boys did Wales proud by continuing to give there all. As Gatland said with two great teams playing each other one with a player sent off the other team should comfortable win. They didn't and in fact if it wasn't for a bit of bad kicking Wales would have won and in all likelyhood been Champions.

Lost all interest in the final now unless of course France lose by a shocking scoreline.

Rolland has reffed France before without any hint of bias, so I don't think that's fair on him at all. Whether you agree with the decision or not, he made a judgement call and it's for debate whether he got it right or wrong I don't think anyone else should impugn the guy's integrity.

Wales did astonishingly well for a team down to 14 men but France were poor again. A bit of a stretch to say that Wales, in all likelihood, would have been champions. I would have fancied them to beat the Aussies but not the All Blacks.

People have commented on the new laws stating that refs should start at a red card and work backwards. So where exactly was the working backwards. He jumped for a red card when the replay looks alot less severe than simlar incidents in the past. He should have checked the replays and given a more measured approach yellow card most likely. If i was that French/Irish ref i wouldn't fancy a trip to Cardiff in the six nations without the SAS as close protection.

There are very specific rules about what can and what cannot be reviewed with by the video referee and I'm pretty certain that, unless it is to do with the actual act of scoring, the referee simply does not have the option to "go upstairs". It is all very well everyone having a go at Rolland for not having the decision reviewed but I don't think that he even had that option open to him.

Whether he should have been able to look at the incident again is a whole other matter but all the referees will be working to very strict guidelines that are laid down by the IRB and agreed by all the countries in advance.

 

[HRC99]

6. A. 6 Referee consulting with others

(b) A match organiser may appoint an official who uses technological devices. If the referee is unsure when making a decision in in-goal involving a try being scored or a touch down, that official may be consulted.

The official may be consulted if the referee is unsure when making a decision in in-goal with regard to the scoring of a try or a touch down when foul play in in-goal may have been involved.

The official may be consulted in relation to the success or otherwise of kicks at goal.

It wasn't an option for Rolland to have another look at the incident. Perhaps it should be, but you cannot have a go at the guy if he couldn't have had it reviewed.

 

[User20205]

oh dear we seem to have hit a nerve there big fella, its just a comment, Chill baby!
its attitude like that that people dont like on forums

maybe it was slightly short, didn't think you were adding much to the thread! Have you got any thing to add?

re Rolland. he's a decent referee. He gets French games because he's fluent in French, they can't play the Anglo Saxon conspiracy then. I just believe he made a mistake by not taking a second to pause and think. If the red card is a starting point, it shouldn't have been a end point in this case. That directive itself shows referees can use discretion

It's a big leap of faith to say Wales would have won the semi and gone onto win the Final. The winners probably would have come from tomorrows game anyway. At least now we won't have to listen to the Welsh banging on about actually winning the thing!

To say Rolland will need protection next time he's in Cardiff is nonsense and doing your team a disservice

 

[HRC99]

We aren't going to agree, buy a paper tomorrow & see what the consensus opinion is.

Might not quite be the consensus you were expecting:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2011/oct/15/rugby-world-cup-wales-sam-warburton

[URL="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/wales/8829099/Rugby-World-Cup-2011-Sam-Warburtons-red-card-was-strong-refereeing-and-spot-on.html"]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/wales/8829099/Rugby-World-Cup-2011-Sam-Warburtons-red-card-was-strong-refereeing-and-spot-on.html


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