Penalty area or oob?

[hovis]

On my course there is a wooded area approximately 80 meters long on 20 meters wide that runs down the left of our 17th. On the other side of the wooded area is our 16th and then oob.
My playing partner rattled his driver clean left like an exocet missile into the wooded area. The was no noise and no indication it had hit a tree. I said "you better reload mate because that's probably gone clean through the penalty area, over the 16th and into the farmers field". He said he's gonna take a drop from the wooded area (where its red staked) as he saw where it crossed.

Can someone tell me what rules covers this situation please. I know he can't do that I just don't know the rule

 

[Deleted member 15344]

On my course there is a wooded area approximately 80 meters long on 20 meters wide that runs down the left of our 17th. On the other side of the wooded area is our 16th and then oob.
My playing partner rattled his driver clean left like an exocet missile into the wooded area. The was no noise and no indication it had hit a tree. I said "you better reload mate because that's probably gone clean through the penalty area, over the 16th and into the farmers field". He said he's gonna take a drop from the wooded area (where its red staked) as he saw where it crossed.

Can someone tell me what rules covers this situation please. I know he can't do that I just don't know the rule

So there is a penalty area before the 16th then the OOB.

Guess comes down to what you are both sure about - seems he thinks it’s stayed in the woods ( red staked area ) where as you think it’s gone through the lot over another hole and then OOB

Relief for Ball Not Found but in Penalty Area
If a player’s ball has not been found and it is known or virtually certain that the ball came to rest in a penalty area:

• The player may take penalty relief under Rule 17.1dor 17.2.
• Once the player puts another ball in play to take relief in this way:
• • The original ball is no longer in play and must not be played.
  • This is true even if it is then found on the coursebefore the end of the three-minute search time (see Rule 6.3b).

But if it is not known or virtually certain that the ball came to rest in a penalty area and the ball is lost, the player must take stroke-and-distance relief under Rule 18.2.

 

[Imurg]

And as you state there was no tree clatter I think it's reasonably safe to assume the ball has gone through...
So if it can't be found beyond the trees then the ball is lost and it's back to the tee...

 

[Ethan]

Player can't be virtually certain ball is in penalty area. Ball could easily carry into OOB. Must play as lost.

 

[theoneandonly]

And as you state there was no tree clatter I think it's reasonably safe to assume the ball has gone through...
So if it can't be found beyond the trees then the ball is lost and it's back to the tee...

Could just have easily hit some leaves and quietly dropped. Players call for me, no problem.

 

[rulefan]

Relief for Ball Not Found but in Penalty Area
If a player’s ball has not been found and it is known or virtually certain that the ball came to rest in a penalty area:
But if it is not known or virtually certain that the ball came to rest in a penalty area and the ball is lost, the player must take stroke-and-distance relief under Rule 18.2.

Known or Virtually Certain
The standard for deciding what happened to a player’s ball – for example, whether the ball came to rest in a penalty area, whether it moved or what caused it to move.

Known or virtually certain means more than just possible or probable. It means that either:

• There is conclusive evidence that the event in question happened to the player’s ball, such as when the player or other witnesses saw it happen, or
• Although there is a very small degree of doubt, all reasonably available information shows that it is at least 95% likely that the event in question happened.

“All reasonably available information” includes all information the player knows and all other information he or she can get with reasonable effort and without unreasonable delay.

 

[rulie]

When evaluating for KVC, ask "could the ball be anywhere else other than the penalty area?"

 

[Maninblack4612]

Could just have easily hit some leaves and quietly dropped. Players call for me, no problem.

That hardly comes under the definition of "virtually certain"

 

[rulefan]

When evaluating for KVC, ask "could the ball be anywhere else other than the penalty area?"

And if it 'could be' why can't we find it?

 

[theoneandonly]

That hardly comes under the definition of "virtually certain"

I'm virtually certain it's the players call and the op lacks any real detail beyond what he wants to fit with his view of the situation.

 

[Old Colner]

We have a short par 3 with a red staked penalty area running down the right edge of the hole prior to the course boundary and farmers field, played many a time with playing partners landing in the field and attempting to drop where the ball last crossed the red line, sorry, back to the tee.

 

[Steven Rules]

Could just have easily hit some leaves and quietly dropped. Players call for me, no problem.

"Could just have easily...." implies something more like a 50/50 situation, which falls well short of the 95% threshold requirement for "known or virtually certain".

"Players call for me, no problem." Every action the player takes on the course is his or her call. Ultimately the player must be prepared to justify those actions to the Committee.

 

[backwoodsman]

I'm virtually certain it's the players call and the op lacks any real detail beyond what he wants to fit with his view of the situation.

Sorry, but not having that. Virtually certain has no relation to whether it's the 'players call' or not. Virtually certain relates the whether the ball is or isn't in the penalty area. The OP's post suggests that no-one has any real idea where the ball went. So unless it's actually found, it's lost.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I'm virtually certain it's the players call and the op lacks any real detail beyond what he wants to fit with his view of the situation.

Don’t think it works that way - if anyones playing partners has any doubts then it’s no longer virtually certain - and I reckon any golfer with integrity would go along with it

 

[chrisd]

"Players call for me, no problem." Every action the player takes on the course is his or her call. Ultimately the player must be prepared to justify those actions to the Committee.

Not that I disagree but in all my years at two clubs and some years on the golf committee have I ever known actions be discussed, let alone "justified", by "The Committee "

 

[theoneandonly]

Don’t think it works that way - if anyones playing partners has any doubts then it’s no longer virtually certain - and I reckon any golfer with integrity would go along with it

A lovely but meaningless platitude. If you tell me it's in the penalty then thats good enough for me. After all it's all about integrity ; )

 

[rosecott]

A lovely but meaningless platitude. If you tell me it's in the penalty then thats good enough for me. After all it's all about integrity ; )

So, what you are saying is that you accept anything that a fellow competitor says without question.

 

[Foxholer]

Player can't be virtually certain ball is in penalty area. Ball could easily carry into OOB. Must play as lost.

This!

 

[Maninblack4612]

I'm virtually certain it's the players call and the op lacks any real detail beyond what he wants to fit with his view of the situation.

If I was a fellow competitor of yours I'd be keeping a careful eye on you. ?

 

[backwoodsman]

A lovely but meaningless platitude. If you tell me it's in the penalty then thats good enough for me. After all it's all about integrity ; )

Really?

Player: Oh dear, that went in the pond.
Me: Nope, it went over.
Player: Definitely went in the pond. I saw it go in.
Later
Player: I'll drop one here. Within 2 club lengths isn't it.
Me: Oh look, here it is, 30yards past the pond ...

Players are frequently mistaken. Not lacking integrity; just mistaken.