Peculiar one

[rulefan]

"Could the ball be anywhere else?"

That is the real test.

 

[Swango1980]

And the referee could easily say, "Could the ball be anywhere else?", followed by, "Find me the ball."

I am virtually certain most groups do not have a referee. I am definitely right on that at least 19 times out of 20.

 

[rulie]

Said no referee.
Ever.

As a referee, I have used those statements. Many times it's about "protecting the rest of the field" by not giving a player an advantage that is not applicable.

 

[rulie]

If a player has lost their ball, you've looked at them and said "Find me the ball"??????

Seriously? ?

"Find me the ball" is applicable when the player is disputing whether or not that it's known or virtually certain that the ball not found is in the penalty area, and I'm not convinced. If they find the ball in the penalty area, then they can use penalty area relief, otherwise it's a lost ball.

 

[Swango1980]

"Find me the ball" is applicable when the player is disputing whether or not that it's known or virtually certain that the ball not found is in the penalty area, and I'm not convinced. If they find the ball in the penalty area, then they can use penalty area relief, otherwise it's a lost ball.

I find it unbelievable that a proper referee has EVER asked "find me the ball" when a player says they are virtually certain it is in the penalty area. The referee would look a right idiot if the player called their bluff, said "ok then", rolled up their trousers and started wading through the water. I'd give the referee a penalty for slow play, given he has specifically asked the player to do this. Whilst the group behind look on in amazement.

And, where in the rules does it say a player must find their ball in the penalty area??????

 

[rulefan]

There is no requirement in the rules for a player to find the ball in a PA if there is nowhere else it could be.

 

[Colin L]

What's farfetched? A player claims he has virtual certainty that his ball is in a penalty area but the referee is clear that there is a possibility it could be lost outside it in which case he is going to rule that there isn't virtual certainty and that the ball is lost. Which leaves the player with only one way of establishing his ball is in the penalty area and that is by finding it there.

 

[backwoodsman]

Hmmm. I think the "discussion" of the last few posts of this thread highlights the likelihood that many people's threshold for virtual certainty is probably well below the 95% level. That a cursory search outside a PA has not found the ball, or even a reasonably thorough search, to most people means the ball must be in the PA. But that thinking is far below 95%. Just because you dont find a ball in place A doesnt mean it must be in place B - as is evidenced, in my mind at least, by the number of balls one finds sitting up nicely in the light rough. All the finder can think is "blimey, how the heck did they not see that" - but someone obviously didnt see it.

For a refereeing situation I find the "find me the ball" argument entirely logical..

 

[Swango1980]

Hmmm. I think the "discussion" of the last few posts of this thread highlights the likelihood that many people's threshold for virtual certainty is probably well below the 95% level. That a cursory search outside a PA has not found the ball, or even a reasonably thorough search, to most people means the ball must be in the PA. But that thinking is far below 95%. Just because you dont find a ball in place A doesnt mean it must be in place B - as is evidenced, in my mind at least, by the number of balls one finds sitting up nicely in the light rough. All the finder can think is "blimey, how the heck did they not see that" - but someone obviously didnt see it.

For a refereeing situation I find the "find me the ball" argument entirely logical..

I fully agree. However, I think the "find me the ball" statement is highly confrontational by a referee. So, it was the wording of that, that makes me believe there is no way a top referee would make that statement.

If a player says they are virtually certain that a ball is in a penalty area, firstly the referee needs to determine why they think they are virtually certain. If the referee believes their reasoning is not good enough, all they need to do is say that they do not agree, there is a reasonable chance that the ball could be lost outside penalty area, and therefore it cannot be assumed to be in the penalty area unless it is physically found.

Yes, it may appear to be the same approach as the "find me the ball" statement. But it is not. The referee has never asked the player to search for the ball in the penalty area (which would be an absurd request in many cases), but simply said there is no certainty it is on there unless it can be seen.

Maybe rulie was simply abbreviating the longer discussion, but the response to his comment is also understandable, in that it is hard to believe a referee would ever say that to a player (unless the player got particularly heated, and the referee gave up and bit back)

 

[rulie]

I fully agree. However, I think the "find me the ball" statement is highly confrontational by a referee. So, it was the wording of that, that makes me believe there is no way a top referee would make that statement.

If a player says they are virtually certain that a ball is in a penalty area, firstly the referee needs to determine why they think they are virtually certain. If the referee believes their reasoning is not good enough, all they need to do is say that they do not agree, there is a reasonable chance that the ball could be lost outside penalty area, and therefore it cannot be assumed to be in the penalty area unless it is physically found.

Yes, it may appear to be the same approach as the "find me the ball" statement. But it is not. The referee has never asked the player to search for the ball in the penalty area (which would be an absurd request in many cases), but simply said there is no certainty it is on there unless it can be seen.

Maybe rulie was simply abbreviating the longer discussion, but the response to his comment is also understandable, in that it is hard to believe a referee would ever say that to a player (unless the player got particularly heated, and the referee gave up and bit back)

"Find me the ball" is a curt saying amongst many referees to describe areas near penalty areas where we would most likely not be convinced of known or virtually certain without the ball.

 

[Swinglowandslow]

Just one thing that occurred to me on reading this. If the player ahead said - yes - oops - I can confirm that I must have played the wrong ball on the hole you are playing and am indeed about to play a second shot with what we now know to be your ball - if you had said 'can I have it then'. He gives you your ball - what does he do? Does he simply put another ball down with no penalty. I guess that he must be allowed to do that.

According to OP, the chap was not in OPs medal. Maybe a social player.
If the chap was in a competition then he is in a position where his ball is lost ( and goes back to play another), or, if "he is certain or virtually certain etc" that the ball the OP first saw was his, then he can play without penalty too.Yes?