P&O

SocketRocket

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Legally obliged to break the law… really?? Maximising shareholder wealth is a requirement but not a legal one. There are performance KPIs but that does not make it legal.

the basic principle of law says Ignorantia juris non excusat.
"ignorance of the law excuses no one" so you may not escape liability for violating that law merely by being unaware of its content. But in this case they say they willing broke it.

On another Boris says the boss should quit because he broke the law… ah the irony
Sometimes a company can break employment law deliberately due to it being the least damaging option.

I once had a very disruptive Employee who was not only creating problems with other employees but taking every opportunity to disrupt business for the company while being very careful not to be guilty of gross misconduct. Talking to him and trying every available way to resolve the matter wasn't working. Our Solicitor suggested that we should tell him not to take his coat off the next morning as he was sacked without notice. The Solicitor said that at that time the worse outcome would be a Tribunal finding the Company guilty of unfair dismissal with a fine of around £8K.

We decided not to do this and eventually he left with an agreed sum and signed a non disclosure agreement (Seemed like it was what he was after). The point being there can be a situation where the removal of a troublesome Employee can be worth the cost. I'm not suggesting the way P&O have dealt with these Employees is defendable though, it stinks.
 

Foxholer

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Some of the press comments are way off.
...
Which ones?
...
MCA have already impounded a vessel for breach of competence regulations. Operators also have personal liability for certain breaches.
More to come, certainly.
Good! I think! Not actually surprising, as there doesn't seem to have really been much time to train the replacements fully.
It would appear one (in Hull) passed MCA inspection.
 

SwingsitlikeHogan

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I’m baffled about P&O ferries could have got into this mess in the first place. Yes business clobbered for a couple of years by the pandemic but grants, furlough etc…and over the last few months things should have been getting back to normal. And it’s an incredibly busy route…just put prices up a bit. Everyone else is.
 

Lord Tyrion

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I’m baffled about P&O ferries could have got into this mess in the first place. Yes business clobbered for a couple of years by the pandemic but grants, furlough etc…and over the last few months things should have been getting back to normal. And it’s an incredibly busy route…just put prices up a bit. Everyone else is.
Boat maintenance, port fees, fuel, loan repayments etc all needed to have been paid these last few years. They've had 2 years of virtually no foot or car traffic, haulage only. I'm not at all surprised they have lost millions, same as the airlines. Margins on these routes are tight, the slightest blip impacts massively and 2 years of a pandemic is more than a blip.
 

SwingsitlikeHogan

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Boat maintenance, port fees, fuel, loan repayments etc all needed to have been paid these last few years. They've had 2 years of virtually no foot or car traffic, haulage only. I'm not at all surprised they have lost millions, same as the airlines. Margins on these routes are tight, the slightest blip impacts massively and 2 years of a pandemic is more than a blip.
Ah right. But being critical transport infrastructure you'd have thought the government would have helped out with a 'bridging' loan of some sort - or taken them on board for a while as has been done for at least one of the rail companies (btw that's just an obvious question without any political undertones or implications).

Maybe P&O didn't ask. Dunno. Does anyone know?
 

Lord Tyrion

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Ah right. But being critical transport infrastructure you'd have thought the government would have helped out with a 'bridging' loan of some sort - or taken them on board for a while as has been done for at least one of the rail companies (btw that's just an obvious question without any political undertones or implications).

Maybe P&O didn't ask. Dunno. Does anyone know?
A loan still has to be paid back though. Taking loans is just adding to your debts, it doesn't resolve the issues.
 

Foxholer

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Boat maintenance, port fees, fuel, loan repayments etc all needed to have been paid these last few years. They've had 2 years of virtually no foot or car traffic, haulage only. I'm not at all surprised they have lost millions, same as the airlines. Margins on these routes are tight, the slightest blip impacts massively and 2 years of a pandemic is more than a blip.
They lost money (£39.8m) in the year before Covid arrived too.
 
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Lord Tyrion

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They lost money (£36m) in the year before Covid arrived too.
Clearly not going in the right direction then. Throw in the pandemic which screwed over all overseas transport and it's not hard to see how they are in big trouble. What they did is not the answer but the company needs some sort of overhaul or change of tack or they would be / will be going into administration.
 

SwingsitlikeHogan

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Interesting seeing new TV ad letting us know that even though P&O Cruises have the same first couple of letters as another company we might have heard of, they are totally separate business and nothing to do with the other one we might have heard of.
 

SwingsitlikeHogan

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A Government only has the money they collect from tax payers. It is not the Stock Market.
Governments do, however, do bail outs where a business is UK-critical, or indeed sometimes take them into public ownership. Just surprised that a critical part of the UK transport infrastructure has got into such a mess that it had to resort to breaking the law to stay afloat.
 

Tashyboy

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It has now been revealed that P and O are paying less than the minimum wage. Something that will apparently rectified. But where are these new workers living. If in the UK then surely they must be on the minimum wage at least.
 

Lord Tyrion

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It has now been revealed that P and O are paying less than the minimum wage. Something that will apparently rectified. But where are these new workers living. If in the UK then surely they must be on the minimum wage at least.
Possibly on the ship, possibly in 'company supplied' accommodation in Europe which will be taken off their wages, 6 in a portakabin etc. It's a murky one but hopefully this is a loophole that is getting closed.

Whether the original workers get their old jobs back then depends, possibly, on the gap between their wages and the new, minimum wage, wage.
 

SocketRocket

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Possibly on the ship, possibly in 'company supplied' accommodation in Europe which will be taken off their wages, 6 in a portakabin etc. It's a murky one but hopefully this is a loophole that is getting closed.

Whether the original workers get their old jobs back then depends, possibly, on the gap between their wages and the new, minimum wage, wage.
It's complicated . It's a matter of what's the difference between the potential compensation they will need to pay off the old workforce and the salaries they will have to pay the new. There's also the experience the old workforce had doing the job verses how long the new will need to reach the same productivity. The losses they've made will still be there unless they are cash rich enough to write them off. Without looking into their balance sheet there's also the question of whether the wage bill is the main or only loss making part of their business.
 
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Foxholer

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It has now been revealed that P and O are paying less than the minimum wage. Something that will apparently rectified. But where are these new workers living. If in the UK then surely they must be on the minimum wage at least.
Inference would be that they are not 'UK workers' then - irrespective of where then. I believe several of the ships are registered in Cyprus and/or maybe Jersey, so perhaps UK's minimum wage doesn't apply to the 'new' workers.
 

SocketRocket

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Inference would be that they are not 'UK workers' then - irrespective of where then. I believe several of the ships are registered in Cyprus and/or maybe Jersey, so perhaps UK's minimum wage doesn't apply to the 'new' workers.
Grant Shapps seemed to be suggesting their actions were illegal under employment law as they have not consulted with the employees. The flag of convenience seems to only be pertinent to who they give notice to.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60792039
 
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