Out of Bounds and ball lost Rule Query

[Swinglowandslow]

There's nothing wrong with the local rule, it makes sense on some courses and in some locations for non-elite events, particularly where golf societies of various stripes play and bring a field with a proportion of visitors unfamiliar with a specific course. What is bizarre is a handicapping authority uniquely overriding the Rules of Golf and a Committee's legitimate choice in a strange exception to what the rest of the planet sees as potentially appropriate. IMO, it says much about the arrogance and limited intellectual capacity of the decision makers at the handicapping authority. Reminds me of the proud Mum at the military parade, "look there's my Johnny, the only one in step".

Well said.
I’m not criticising the local rule at all. All would have been fine if Clubs had adopted it as and when. The reason I advocated it being made a rule, as opposed to a local rule, was so that the handicap lot wouldn’t have been able to “veto” it, which is what they have effectively done….

 

[doublebogey7]

Read the local rule and its preamble. It is all laid out there, eg, "The Local Rule is not appropriate for competitions limited to highly skilled players (that is, professional competitions and elite amateur competitions)". It has a place that can be important for some courses, some holes and some "everyday" club and society-type competitions, no-one is suggesting here it should be used everywhere. My observation is where does a handicap body get off telling everyone in their unfortunate jurisdiction they are overriding an official Local Rule from availability? It is sad behaviour by pettifogging bureaucrats.

Sorry, I thought the poster I was replying to said it should be made a rule of golf and not simply an MLR.

 

[salfordlad]

Sorry, I thought the poster I was replying to said it should be made a rule of golf and not simply an MLR.

No problem, context can become estranged in this kind of format and with hindsight I was responding to some different angles. I think E-5 is best retained as an MLR and should require conscious Committee deliberations before promulgation. It would be tail wagging dog if RBs start creating rules to get around strange handicapping authority behaviour.

 

[Swinglowandslow]

Really, so you want to see this rule in operation at The Masters, The Open etc.

No, being brief has given the wrong idea of my take on what it should be. You are right that it shouldn’t be a rule replacing the present one, for all competitions within the sport. So I withdraw my original suggestion, but not the wanting for the R&As wishes to be complied with and not for another body to block those intentions. R & A make the rules and if they make a Local rule which would be beneficial to most club golfers, and most clubs ,in speeding up play in the majority of club competitions, then it isn’t right for another ‘body’ to effectively stop that wish.
My Club at the moment is very much concerned with trying to alleviate slow play in their regular competitions .I don’t imagine for a moment that they would want the LR used in the Club championship, but they would in the everyday competitions. And I think that most clubs would want similar. But their adoption of the local rule has effectively been stopped in any competition.

 

[Steve Wilkes]

There's not a lot of difference in walking down and finding your ball has rolled into a penalty hazzard or rolled OOB.
One lets you drop for a 1 shot penalty even at Pro & Elite level, and the other means a walk back to the tee for a 2 shot penalty.
So personally I wouldn't see this dumbing down on the rules if the MLR E-5 was used as a main rule, 2 shot penalty is still harsh enough even at elite level

 

[doublebogey7]

There's not a lot of difference in walking down and finding your ball has rolled into a penalty hazzard or rolled OOB.
One lets you drop for a 1 shot penalty even at Pro & Elite level, and the other means a walk back to the tee for a 2 shot penalty.
So personally I wouldn't see this dumbing down on the rules if the MLR E-5 was used as a main rule, 2 shot penalty is still harsh enough even at elite level

Stroke & distance is a ine shot penalty. I agree re E-5 for handicap competitions, but disagree for elite level.

 

[jim8flog]

We had a sub committee of about 6-8 when the new LRs came in to discuss which we would adopt and which we would not. Not a single member of the sub committee was in favour of adopting this rule.

We had an American temp member who used it all the time because it was what he was used to playing in the states, we all gave up telling him we did not have it.

 

[Steve Wilkes]

We had a sub committee of about 6-8 when the new LRs came in to discuss which we would adopt and which we would not. Not a single member of the sub committee was in favour of adopting this rule.

We had an American temp member who used it all the time because it was what he was used to playing in the states, we all gave up telling him we did not have it.

The vote is not a good yardstick, nobody viotes for change. If you had to walk back to the tee for a ball in a stream and there was a vote to say, "I know what, what about dropping point of entry for a 1 shot penalty", no club would have had a majority vote yes (when you think about, just one shot, the equivilant of playing in out, and this is at elite level), or even shall we have the option of leaving the flag in when putting

 

[IanM]

People do vote for change.... if they think it's beneficial.

 

[jim8flog]

The vote is not a good yardstick, nobody viotes for change. If you had to walk back to the tee for a ball in a stream and there was a vote to say, "I know what, what about dropping point of entry for a 1 shot penalty", no club would have had a majority vote yes (when you think about, just one shot, the equivilant of playing in out, and this is at elite level), or even shall we have the option of leaving the flag in when putting

In all my years I have seen a lot of clubs that have had rules that they have dreamt up or not been allowed , including where I play, somebody has to make the decision to allow or not to allow certain rules including the committee at the R&A, else golf becomes a free for all where everybody just does what they want.

I agree with doing what is agreed amongst a group of friends provided they are not doing it in an a comp where others or playing or submitting cards for handicap purposes. Trouble is what is agreed amongst friends often becomes habit and gets done in a comp without thinking about it.

 

[Steve Wilkes]

In all my years I have seen a lot of clubs that have had rules that they have dreamt up or not been allowed , including where I play, somebody has to make the decision to allow or not to allow certain rules including the committee at the R&A, else golf becomes a free for all where everybody just does what they want.

I agree with doing what is agreed amongst a group of friends provided they are not doing it in an a comp where others or playing or submitting cards for handicap purposes. Trouble is what is agreed amongst friends often becomes habit and gets done in a comp without thinking about it.

I'm not sure if this was a reply to my post, you can't have clubs having votes against the rules of golf, I was saying the R & A should adopt E-5 as rule of golf.
It may sound absurd even at elite level, but alreay pros can hit 280 yards in to the middle of a pond and sometimes drop on the fairway for a one shot penalty ( this is like hitting from the bottom of the pond back onto the fairway ), But can't for a ball gone maybe a few yards OOB for a 2 shot penalty

 

[D-S]

Just curious to know whether there are any other Model Local Rules that Handicap authorities have banned clubs from using? I started going through them but there are quite a few, so took a shortcut by asking the question here..
If this is the only one I would think they need to give some very good justification for their exceptional behaviour.
Just to add, I know there are occasions where you need to seek permissions to apply a local rule outside a defined period but this is distinctly different from an outright ban.

 

[woofers]

I'm not sure if this was a reply to my post, you can't have clubs having votes against the rules of golf, I was saying the R & A should adopt E-5 as rule of golf.
It may sound absurd even at elite level, but alreay pros can hit 280 yards in to the middle of a pond and sometimes drop on the fairway for a one shot penalty ( this is like hitting from the bottom of the pond back onto the fairway ), But can't for a ball gone maybe a few yards OOB for a 2 shot penalty

I disagree.
And it’s a 1 shot penalty for OOB, rule 18.2b.
So you’re saying a “bomber” who cannot keep the ball within the confines of the course, can go down to the estimated point over 280 yards from where they played and get a drop onto the fairway. And that should be the norm? At my course 8 of the last 9 holes have a course boundary. Don’t you think that would take some of the skill and judgement out of playing the course?

 

[rulefan]

I disagree.
And it’s a 1 shot penalty for OOB, rule 18.2b.
So you’re saying a “bomber” who cannot keep the ball within the confines of the course, can go down to the estimated point over 280 yards from where they played and get a drop onto the fairway. And that should be the norm? At my course 8 of the last 9 holes have a course boundary. Don’t you think that would take some of the skill and judgement out of playing the course?

E-5 involves a 2 stroke penalty or have I missed your point?

 

[woofers]

E-5 involves a 2 stroke penalty.

Thanks, I know, I was trying to point out that under E5 the player gets relief by playing the ball from the fairway, regardless of what may be between the OOB and fairway, it could be penal rough, a copse of trees, a “waste area” or a penalty area. I wasn’t suggesting it was a 1 shot penalty, perhaps poor terminology on my part.

 

[WorldHandicapSystem]

This rule should absolutely not be put in place for competition or handicap counting rounds.

The drops taken would be miles in front of where the ball crossed OB.

I’ve seen so many people slice one into the front of edge of one of our ponds and walk 250+ yards up the side to take a drop. Most of the time they haven’t hit a drive that far all round.

It would just encourage people taking the piss and even more nicest point of relief drops.

 

[rulie]

This rule should absolutely not be put in place for competition or handicap counting rounds.

The drops taken would be miles in front of where the ball crossed OB.

I’ve seen so many people slice one into the front of edge of one of our ponds and walk 250+ yards up the side to take a drop. Most of the time they haven’t hit a drive that far all round.

It would just encourage people taking the piss and even more nicest point of relief drops.

And those scores are being posted for handicapping? Is anything being said or done about it?

 

[Swinglowandslow]

This rule should absolutely not be put in place for competition or handicap counting rounds.

The drops taken would be miles in front of where the ball crossed OB.

I’ve seen so many people slice one into the front of edge of one of our ponds and walk 250+ yards up the side to take a drop. Most of the time they haven’t hit a drive that far all round.

It would just encourage people taking the piss and even more nicest point of relief drops.

And that doesn’t happen now?. Come on, the people that would try to do that are the same ones who wouldn’t walk back to their previous shot location, but would drop one.
If in a group that doesn’t turn a blind eye, it would be difficult to drop too far away.
250 yds?. So many people?

So, don’t have a rule because some might not keep to it.

For a serious , competitive player, adding two extra shots is more than twice a problem than adding one.
Such a player would play the present rule.
This local rule would be used by the old knackered Stableford guy ( don’t ask me how I know), who just can’t face walking back etc. It means he can get on, move forward with the group and help avoid slow play

 

[jim8flog]

I'm not sure if this was a reply to my post, you can't have clubs having votes against the rules of golf, I was saying the R & A should adopt E-5 as rule of golf.
It may sound absurd even at elite level, but alreay pros can hit 280 yards in to the middle of a pond and sometimes drop on the fairway for a one shot penalty ( this is like hitting from the bottom of the pond back onto the fairway ), But can't for a ball gone maybe a few yards OOB for a 2 shot penalty

So the question comes

What other allowable LRs do you want to see in The Rules of Golf rather than as optional LRs?

I know we have LRs in place which other clubs do not and I have seen players in matches drop a shot because of it.

 

[woofers]

So the question comes

What other allowable LRs do you want to see in The Rules of Golf rather than as optional LRs?

I know we have LRs in place which other clubs do not and I have seen players in matches drop a shot because of it.

At the risk of going off on a tangent and thread creep, what about MLR E-4, relief from aeration holes?