Opening the face of a wedge advice

[TPO77]

Hi all. I'm in need of a little bit of guidance from more experienced minds.

I have just bought some Wilson Staff Ci11s and the stock PW and GW from the set are 44 and 48 degrees. I also currently have 3 TW9 wedges a 52, 56 and a 60. I am looking at dropping one of the wedges a) to free up space for my 4 iron and b) because 5 wedges (even if the PW is a 9 iron :ears is excessive in my view. My first thought was to drop the 60 because then it keeps nice gaps (at least in loft terms) BUT I don't use the 56 or the 60 for full shots. I use the 52 for anything inside 75 yards and the 60 for getting the ball up and down quickly/greenside finesse shots. They both get a fair amount of use per round. The 56 however is reserved mainly for fluffy lies in the rough and bunker shots. So ideally I'd rather remove the 56 but I need to make sure my understanding of what happens to loft and bounce when you open the club face is correct.

Now here's the bit that I would like clarification on to see if my thinking is correct. The bounce angles of the wedges are 52/8, 56/12 and 60/6. If I take the 60 out I would be able to use the 56 with an open face to play the shots that I would've with the 60 previously BUT the bounce angle would increase also by opening the face rendering the club much more difficult to use from tight lies. Is my thinking correct there? And if so does that mean that by opening the face of the 52 that the loft and bounce would end up being very similar to using the 56 since both the loft and bounce are 4 degrees less on the 52 when held neutral? I hope that my explanation there makes sense and it's clear what I'm asking. Hopefully also some of you wiser heads can confirm or correct my understanding.

 

[duncan mackie]

basically yes - the only other factor is that the 56/12 will tend to have a much higher swing weight and that's why it feels better for both fluffy and heavy lies.

personally on your bag, and with what you've outlined, I would drop the 3w and keep the wedges. If you use the 3w a lot off the tee then drop the driver.

 

[Foxholer]

Yay - I think! Something Duncan and disagree about! Though i can see his logic.

I'd drop the 4-iron!

Opening up a wedge doesn't actually change the actual bounce, as that is fixed - as the angle between te leading and trailing edges. However, depending on the design and/or grind applied, the effective bounce can be reduced.

If the low bounce edges suit you, then you could consider bending your 52* to 50* and 'parking' your GW (you can then have the -iron). I wouldn't recommend going the other (bending the GW weaker) as it fits the rest of the DI7 set and the width of the sole will mean the increased bounce has a more dramatic effect. Bending cast clubs does have some risk - more than with forged ones - and you will reduce the bounce by 2* also.

Much more important, imo, to get the scoring clubs set up correctly than the (harder to hit) distance ones!

Hope that helps

 

[TPO77]

Thanks for the advice guys.

Duncan - I hadn't really thought about the possibility of dropping the 3 wood if I'm honest but it makes sense. It's another one of my limited use clubs. I don't use it off the tee unless I'm having a nightmare with the driver but I'm generally pretty straight with the driver. I'm not great with the 3 wood off the deck either so eliminating the temptation might be a smart idea.

Foxholer - When I was using the Di7's I did drop the 4 iron for a while in favour of the gap wedge but I find I'm hitting the 4 iron pretty well now and it's very useful for tee shots to tight fairways. Also helps on some of the longer par 3's. I'm reluctant to risk bending any of the wedges because my distance gaps between the PW, GW and 52 give me a nice coverage of full shots between 115 yards and 85 yards. That's why I was leaning more towards the lesser used 56 but you're right enough that I'll be better off having more options with the scoring clubs than more option of clubs I'm much less accurate with anyway.

Thanks guys, it's much appreciated :cheers:

 

[duncan mackie]

Yay - I think! Something Duncan and disagree about!

Opening up a wedge doesn't actually change the actual bounce, as that is fixed - as the angle between te leading and trailing edges. However, depending on the design and/or grind applied, the effective bounce can be reduced.

yep - we disagree! :thup:

at the very least the effective bounce as you call it will increase if you open the face!

 

[Foxholer]

yep - we disagree! :thup:

at the very least the effective bounce as you call it will increase if you open the face!

Yes, should have stated ;changed' as it can be either way.

You are more likely to be correct though as wedges without 'grinds' or shaping will tend to increase effective bounce when opened up.

Certain grinds will, however, reduce effective bounce when opened. 'P' is one. Aggressive Heel Relief will have a similar effect.

 

[Blue in Munich]

Yes, should have stated ;changed' as it can be either way.

You are more likely to be correct though as wedges without 'grinds' or shaping will tend to increase effective bounce when opened up.

Certain grinds will, however, reduce effective bounce when opened. 'P' is one. Aggressive Heel Relief will have a similar effect.

Uncle Bob would disagree; from the Vokey website;

INSPIRATION	The P in P Grind refers to the Pre-Worn Channel on the sole of the wedge.
FEATURES	The P Grind is the most unique of all grinds containing a wide, pre-worn sole design with a relieved mid-sole area
BENEFIT	This mid-sole relief area allows the wedge to play with very little bounce when square and more bounce when the club face is opened. The wide sole and prominent trailing edge helps resist digging.

As I understand it heel and toe relief will only reduce the rate at which the effective bounce bounce increases if the player remembers to address the ball with the heel or toe grounded; if you address it in the centre of the sole then the relief won't make a blind bit of difference.

 

[MrMr]

Throw out the 56. The 60 will be great for all shots. Just spend a few hours practicing with it and you wont look back.

 

[Foxholer]

Uncle Bob would disagree; from the Vokey website;

INSPIRATION	The P in P Grind refers to the Pre-Worn Channel on the sole of the wedge.
FEATURES	The P Grind is the most unique of all grinds containing a wide, pre-worn sole design with a relieved mid-sole area
BENEFIT	This mid-sole relief area allows the wedge to play with very little bounce when square and more bounce when the club face is opened. The wide sole and prominent trailing edge helps resist digging.

As I understand it heel and toe relief will only reduce the rate at which the effective bounce bounce increases if the player remembers to address the ball with the heel or toe grounded; if you address it in the centre of the sole then the relief won't make a blind bit of difference.

Egad! and Doh! Completely Ass about Face!

I'll never have any confidence in my Vokey 'P' again!
The guy I loaned it to took it to Oz anyway!
A[p;ogies for doubting you Duncan! :mmm:
Also explains how the Solus wedges work the way they do - they are based on Ps

For heel relief, it's not so much where ball is addressed as how the heel, which is leading, doesn't bounce on turf or in sand before the ball gets hit. If you address the ball with the heel, you risk a shank!

 

[Blue in Munich]

Egad! and Doh! Completely Ass about Face!

I'll never have any confidence in my Vokey 'P' again!
The guy I loaned it to took it to Oz anyway!
A[p;ogies for doubting you Duncan! :mmm:
Also explains how the Solus wedges work the way they do - they are based on Ps

For heel relief, it's not so much where ball is addressed as how the heel, which is leading, doesn't bounce on turf or in sand before the ball gets hit. If you address the ball with the heel, you risk a shank!

Stan Utley, from The Art Of The Short Game;

"I modified the bounce on my sand wedge so that I can get the most versatility out of one club. I ground some material away near the heel of the club, so that if I need to hit a shot from a really tight, hard lie, I can just lower my hands and hit the ground with the heel of the club. If I play the shot from a normal position I still get the full benefit of 12 degrees of bounce"

Or put another way, addressing the ball with the heel grounded.


Similarly with the toe relief, from the Vokey website;

INSPIRATION	The M Grind was Voke's original Tour Grind and the one he considers his "Most Favorite."
FEATURES	The M Grind has a crescent-shaped forward bounce sole and relieved heel, toe and trailing edge, along with medium camber and bounce.
BENEFIT	The sole relief reduces ground drag and provides easy-in/easy-out performance from the turf and sand. The relief also improves and encourages shot making by keeping the leading edge close to the ground as the head rotates from square to open, preventing the wedge from sticking when a shot is played from the open position. The toe relief allows chip shots to be played with the toe down and heel raised.