Official WHS Survey

[PaulMdj]

Under the old system their handicaps got down to 6

It’s the same with players that used to be off 9/10 now up at 18

Not by playing normally though! A rise that much is borderline cheating.

 

[D-S]

No the system moved their handicaps up and then they just play comps and their handicap increases

Surely in 4 years their playing record is now all post 2020 and, as it is all from comps, either they have put a lot of money into the comps with only rarely placing or winning or their HI will now reflect their ability?

 

[Arthur Wedge]

Not by playing normally though! A rise that much is borderline cheating.

Playing normally

Surely in 4 years their playing record is now all post 2020 and, as it is all from comps, either they have put a lot of money into the comps with only rarely placing or winning or their HI will now reflect their ability?

Or they play rubbish in medals and handicap qualifying and sweep up in KO’s

 

[PaulMdj]

Playing normally




Or they play rubbish in medals and handicap qualifying and sweep up in KO’s

8 shots playing normally? Not seen or heard of that happening apart from those cheating!
Has your Club reviewed their handicaps?

 

[Arthur Wedge]

8 shots playing normally? Not seen or heard of that happening apart from those cheating!
Has your Club reviewed their handicaps?

Yes they were cut after winning the KOs

 

[jim8flog]

Not by playing normally though! A rise that much is borderline cheating.

In 2020 (start of the WHS) I was 8 now 14.2 Two more poor rounds and I will be 16 what do you base your implication on?
I put in around 30 cards a year mostly comps most years.

 

[D-S]

Playing normally




Or they play rubbish in medals and handicap qualifying and sweep up in KO’s

Sorry I thought you said “Looking at the results imo the guys winning are playing off handicaps at least 2/3 shots higher than what they should be doing and those 10/11 handicaps used to be off around 6/7” so they actually are playing ‘well’ in handicap qualifying events - this weekend’s Stablefords off whites is what you referred to.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

Sorry I thought you said “Looking at the results imo the guys winning are playing off handicaps at least 2/3 shots higher than what they should be doing and those 10/11 handicaps used to be off around 6/7” so they actually are playing ‘well’ in handicap qualifying events - this weekend’s Stablefords off whites is what you referred to.

This weekends Stablefords were for turkeys - so a little extra benefit of winning

Looking at the Guy of 11 he actually was of 4 , seven years ago

We had a guy who was plus 1 and his handicap through WHS ended up being 8 at some stage

 

[clubchamp98]

And in the real world that is ther person with the best gross score, the rest of us are also rans and may get the consolation of pocketing a little money for playing better than our own norm and, if really lucky on the day, our name on a cheap trophy.

Yes totally agree.
But lowest gross isn’t part of WHS it’s a separate comp ( at ours anyway)
Not every comp has a lowest gross only the medals. That’s two a month.!

 

[nickjdavis]

8 shots playing normally? Not seen or heard of that happening apart from those cheating!
Has your Club reviewed their handicaps?

I've just checked the changes that we've seen at our club in the 4 years since the WHS was introduced.

Our biggest riser is a guy over that period is a fella who was off 13.0 in Nov 2020 and is currently 26.9 having submitted competition 66 scores in that period. Just looking at his adjusted gross scores I estimate that there was a solitary comp where he might have scored 38 points.

The next biggest is a rise of 10.4 from 87 scores submitted, with the player going from 9.4 to 19.8. Again, his record is one of continuous decline with just one single score of around 40 points.

Our biggest reduction is from 45 down to 5. The vast majority of this players (he is now 15 years old) record is general play scores with a smattering of comps thrown in, the majority of which have been over the past summer (in fact I played with him myself only a month or so ago). Although his record is one of continuous improvement, he has never won anything in comps (14 scores in comps out of his 86 scores this year) with perhaps his best showing coming in yesterdays medal where he shot a 77 (par 70).

The next big reduction is 17.5 (from 38.8 down to 21.3) but this fella hasn't played a competitive round since he joined us in March 2022 and most of his reductions actually came at his previous club.

 

[PaulMdj]

In 2020 (start of the WHS) I was 8 now 14.2 Two more poor rounds and I will be 16 what do you base your implication on?
I put in around 30 cards a year mostly comps most years.

How many comps have you won while your handicap has gone up?

 

[PaulMdj]

I've just checked the changes that we've seen at our club in the 4 years since the WHS was introduced.

Our biggest riser is a guy over that period is a fella who was off 13.0 in Nov 2020 and is currently 26.9 having submitted competition 66 scores in that period. Just looking at his adjusted gross scores I estimate that there was a solitary comp where he might have scored 38 points.

The next biggest is a rise of 10.4 from 87 scores submitted, with the player going from 9.4 to 19.8. Again, his record is one of continuous decline with just one single score of around 40 points.

Our biggest reduction is from 45 down to 5. The vast majority of this players (he is now 15 years old) record is general play scores with a smattering of comps thrown in, the majority of which have been over the past summer (in fact I played with him myself only a month or so ago). Although his record is one of continuous improvement, he has never won anything in comps (14 scores in comps out of his 86 scores this year) with perhaps his best showing coming in yesterdays medal where he shot a 77 (par 70).

The next big reduction is 17.5 (from 38.8 down to 21.3) but this fella hasn't played a competitive round since he joined us in March 2022 and most of his reductions actually came at his previous club.

Any reason why they’ve risen or are you saying it’s because of WHS? Phil was possibly implying it was down to WHS.

 

[nickjdavis]

Any reason why they’ve risen or are you saying it’s because of WHS? Phil was possibly implying it was down to WHS.

It's categorically nothing to do with WHS. The players are simply declining in ability and are posting worse scores.

All I was doing was posting the worst rises our club has seen to demonstrate that big rises are possible without any "foul play".

Maybe what I need to do is to check what their indexes would be if the UHS had continued. On my initial glance I would say that the vast majority of the scores posted from either player would result in 0.1 increases. Throw in a few 1 shot exceptional (bad) increases and I wouldn't be surprised to see similar increases under a UHS style system.

 

[PaulMdj]

It's categorically nothing to do with WHS. The players are simply declining in ability and are posting worse scores.

All I was doing was posting the worst rises our club has seen to demonstrate that big rises are possible without any "foul play".

Maybe what I need to do is to check what their indexes would be if the UHS had continued. On my initial glance I would say that the vast majority of the scores posted from either player would result in 0.1 increases. Throw in a few 1 shot exceptional (bad) increases and I wouldn't be surprised to see similar increases under a UHS style system.

I understand if people have had injuries or just fell “out of love’ with the game, but some of the drops with no background as you and Phil have posted I just find mind boggling.

 

[nickjdavis]

I understand if people have had injuries or just fell “out of love’ with the game, but some of the drops with no background as you and Phil have posted I just find mind boggling.

The bloke who has gone from 13 to 26.9 is a player of general declining ability....there is nothing more to it that that.

I've just gone through his record and in his 66 rounds since November 2020 i reckon he would have had...

1 x cut of 0.3
9 x buffer zone
56 x 0.1 increases of which on 4 occasions he had a run of 7 in a row, which would have given him 4 more shots back under the old exceptional scores function.

So my rough fag packet calculation says that he would be off 22.6 under the old system and that doesn't take into consideration any "annual review" adjustments the committee might have seen fit to bestow upon him.

3 years ago he was shooting mid 80's, in 2022/23 he was shooting mid 90's, now he is shooting mid 100's.....nothing sinister about it at all.....he is just getting worse.....and for those folks who say your index should reflect your potential....in this blokes case then it needs to be in the low 30's based on his most recent half a dozen differentials.

 

[PaulMdj]

The bloke who has gone from 13 to 26.9 is a player of general declining ability....there is nothing more to it that that.

I've just gone through his record and in his 66 rounds since November 2020 i reckon he would have had...

1 x cut of 0.3
9 x buffer zone
56 x 0.1 increases of which on 4 occasions he had a run of 7 in a row, which would have given him 4 more shots back under the old exceptional scores function.

So my rough fag packet calculation says that he would be off 22.6 under the old system and that doesn't take into consideration any "annual review" adjustments the committee might have seen fit to bestow upon him.

3 years ago he was shooting mid 80's, in 2022/23 he was shooting mid 90's, now he is shooting mid 100's.....nothing sinister about it at all.....he is just getting worse.....and for those folks who say your index should reflect your potential....in this blokes case then it needs to be in the low 30's based on his most recent half a dozen differentials.

Cheers, feel for the bloke, I’d find it hard to keep playing declining that quickly

 

[AussieKB]

Played away course, so handicap went up to 5, some players went up 4 shots.

My daily handicap is wherever I play, tomorrow I will be 4, one of my courses that I belong to,
then I am off a 3 at the other course I play which is my home course.

And I mention gross because that is how I rate how I played.....
would hate to start saying I shot nett 40 plus stableford points off a 20 plus handicap.

 

[rulie]

Time to close this thread? It's spiraled into a mish-mash of reporting insignificant events (suggested as statistics) at various courses.

 

[IanM]

It would have died a death ages ago if certain folk would admit there is a tiny shread of truth in other peoples' position

 

[Dunesman]

The gentlemen of the Chipping Forecast promising a deep dive on WHS upcoming, including input from England Golf. Watch that space.

I would expect NCG to get stuck into it soon also. Their earlier ones were very good.

Our committee has finalised their proposal, going to explain the situation openly, and propose to continue the categories for the competitions it was introduced for this year with the 0.95, but go with 0.9 multiplier for three board handicapped comps and 3 other trophies, with a committment to review the situation again in a years time. The bulk of other competitions to remain without categories with 0.95. So quite a mix, but hard to keep everyone happy.