Official WHS Survey

[AussieKB]

Played the other day and shot 2 over par off a 4 handicap, so 50% better for 38 points

A 12 handicapper shoots 50% for 42 points.

A 21 Handicapper shoots 33% for 43 points.

A 30 handicapper shoots 33% for 46 points.

A 40 handicapper chops it for 25% for 46 points.

Yes I can see it is a fair system for single figure golfers.

 

[D-S]

Played the other day and shot 2 over par off a 4 handicap, so 50% better for 38 points

A 12 handicapper shoots 50% for 42 points.

A 21 Handicapper shoots 33% for 43 points.

A 30 handicapper shoots 33% for 46 points.

A 40 handicapper chops it for 25% for 46 points.

Yes I can see it is a fair system for single figure golfers.

Are you simply not allowed to have divisions?

I don’t care what system is in place, someone with 40 shots shouldn’t be competing with someone single figure shots for the same prize. At my club they don’t.

 

[AussieKB]

What about name on Board prizes......are they done by divisions at your club ?

 

[D-S]

What about name on Board prizes......are they done by divisions at your club ?

There are handicap limits on knockouts as well as club champs which the main prize is gross. Otherwise we don’t have names on boards. Monthly and weekly Medalsand Stablefords all have divisions. Cups have handicap limits or one cup for 14 and below or another for 15 plus etc. The club is in charge of these aspects and they can design a schedule as they wish. You can always have new boards / trophies for higher handicappers if that is what members want.

Over the years club competitions and schedules and formats change, not every thing is exactly as it was 131 years ago in my club”s case, I assume things changed a bit when women started a section over a 100 years ago. Apparently it cost 1 Guinea to enter the monthly medal in the early years that’s about £160 today so even comp fees have altered a bit.

 

[AussieKB]

Was a member of two clubs in England that had at least 20 boards on display with no handicap restrictions.

 

[clubchamp98]

There are handicap limits on knockouts as well as club champs which the main prize is gross. Otherwise we don’t have names on boards. Monthly and weekly Medalsand Stablefords all have divisions. Cups have handicap limits or one cup for 14 and below or another for 15 plus etc. The club is in charge of these aspects and they can design a schedule as they wish. You can always have new boards / trophies for higher handicappers if that is what members want.

I can see that coming
A two tier system where say Scratch and under only compete with up to say 18 handicap. ( just guessing)

19 and above compete against each other.

If you want to be on the board for majours get your handicap under 18 or have separate ones for 19 and above.

Plainly WHS isn’t working atm for some as the gulf in opinions is to big to solve imo.

 

[clubchamp98]

Was a member of two clubs in England that had at least 20 boards on display with no handicap restrictions.

Ours was 22 but now it’s 32 to enter a board comp.

 

[D-S]

I can see that coming
A two tier system where say Scratch and under only compete with up to say 18 handicap. ( just guessing)

19 and above compete against each other.

If you want to be on the board for majours get your handicap under 18 or have separate ones for 19 and above.

Plainly WHS isn’t working atm for some as the gulf in opinions is to big to solve imo.

We had divisions and handicap limits prior to WHS.

 

[D-S]

Ours was 22 but now it’s 32 to enter a board comp.

That’s a club choice not a WHS issue.

 

[D-S]

Was a member of two clubs in England that had at least 20 boards on display with no handicap restrictions.

Our knockouts always had handicap restrictions prior to WHS. They had also other restrictions in certain periods like 75% not 100% singles matchplay allowance and who knows what 80 or 100 years ago.
Rightly or wrongly under previous handicap systems members obviously thought it was not fair/right for a 4 handicapper to compete on a level playing field against a 28 handicapper and found ways to achieve that - so you could frame that as the system not working but they found a way.

Divisions is another more inclusive way of doing it - t(ey are also recommended by our authority.

 

[clubchamp98]

We had divisions and handicap limits prior to WHS.

Yes so did we.
I’m talking in general where a single figure will never play in a comp against a 19/ and above.

So in a board comp a trophy for each category. Up to 18 and 19 and above.
Just a thought it might solve a lot of complaints.
They could still play together just in separate comps.

There could be sub divisions if the club wanted.

 

[clubchamp98]

That’s a club choice not a WHS issue.

I know it is I didn’t say it was a WHS thing.
I was just answering to AussieKB as his club didn’t.

 

[Dunesman]

Played the other day and shot 2 over par off a 4 handicap, so 50% better for 38 points

A 12 handicapper shoots 50% for 42 points.

A 21 Handicapper shoots 33% for 43 points.

A 30 handicapper shoots 33% for 46 points.

A 40 handicapper chops it for 25% for 46 points.

Yes I can see it is a fair system for single figure golfers.

That is not a sound way to look at it. Percentages of handicap do not indicate 'better' as you are basing your comparison.
Consider a scratch golfer. He could play 25% better by your equation and would still have 36 pts. He play 25% worse and would also have 36pts. He could play 100% better and would still have 36pts.
Your 4 handicap suffers the same mistake in the calculation. It doesnt at first glance appear as ludicrous, but the flaw in the calculation is the same.

'Better' can only be compared in terms of absolute differentials.

 

[D-S]

Yes so did we.
I’m talking in general where a single figure will never play in a comp against a 19/ and above.

So in a board comp a trophy for each category. Up to 18 and 19 and above.
Just a thought it might solve a lot of complaints.
They could still play together just in separate comps.

There could be sub divisions if the club wanted.

Yes, clubs can adapt and change. The rules in place for the original board comps were no doubt totally different to those today in many different ways. No one said after the club had its first two board comps, “that’s it, two is enough, we will never have another board”. Things change and adapt to meet the need of the time as they always have done.

 

[Dunesman]

What about name on Board prizes......are they done by divisions at your club ?

Yes. This is where divisions is not a solution.

And highlights further, that in the past we did not need divisions. And WHS has dusrupted this. Granted, some clubs may not experience this issue. But many clubs established years ago do have cups trophies and titles which were competed for by all members. Yes, there might have been once, a max handicap for men of 18, then, 24, then 28 and just before WHS 54. Max limits for those competitions maintained theur credibility and sense of fairness. Ours did allow 28HI to compete, but it has never been expanded to 54. I am sure they never will. But since WHS, the bias against the lower 1/3 of the field has disrupted the fairness that was considered there for over a century. And this is because competition handicaps are not correct. Categories is NOT a solution.

 

[Deleted member 36483]

Yes, clubs can adapt and change. The rules in place for the original board comps were no doubt totally different to those today in many different ways. No one said after the club had its first two board comps, “that’s it, two is enough, we will never have another board”. Things change and adapt to meet the need of the time as they always have done.

What are the needs of the time?

 

[Deleted member 36483]

Hypothetical question but I'm interested in people's thoughts on this...

If all golf courses were made up of 18 holes each measuring less than 100 yards, would there still be a need for a handicap system?

 

[D-S]

What are the needs of the time?

The wishes of the current members of the club, which no doubt were different in the 19th Century, the 20th Century and this Century as well as in the many different eras during those Centuries.

 

[Dunesman]

Ours was 22 but now it’s 32 to enter a board comp.

With WHS, even a HI of 18 is too high.
But EG should have known this before WhS, and should certainly know it now. They should have protected the long history of club golf and the members who are the foundation of the game. While categories existed and had their place, they are not a solution for all cases. And when they are touted as a fix for clubs experiencing difficulties with comoetition fairness under WHS it is an acknowledgement that WHS doesnt work, and is a pathetic fig leaf solution. We deserve a better correction.

Has EG, or any other regional authority, spoken publicly or published real data on the success or not of WHS ? And I am not speaking about numbers of rwgistered handicaps. That is of no interest to those already in the game.

But on the goals of WHS : are handicaps comparable between regions (it would appear no, but what is their take on it), have we the same handicap system everywhere, and, are WHS handicaps a fair basis for amateurs competing against each other ?
Some association somewhere in the world must be evaluating how well or not WHS has met or not its stated goals set a decade ago.

 

[Voyager EMH]

For men at my club we have two board comps for 19 and over handicaps only, one for 10 to 18 handicaps and all the rest have maximum 24 playing handicap.
Higher handicaps may enter, but their playing handicap for the comp will be 24.
It has been this way for a long time and WHS introduction did not cause a change. Even longer ago the maximum was 20.
There are plenty of other comps, including the weekday medal from April to September where higher handicaps are used.
We do not have divisions usually, but this does happen occasionally for things like Captain's Day or President's Day.