Official WHS Survey

[clubchamp98]

I simply described the actual rules/guidance that handicap secretaries were supposed to follow; there was no perception involved.
If any club was doing something different, they shouldn't have been.

I simply described what they did!

 

[IanMac]

I simply described what they did!

You did and they did the right thing

A good club is a group of people who play golf and socialise together. The committee's job is to maintain harmony as well as applying the rules of golf. A good committee member has experience and good judgement. Good judgement is subjective and if a committee let's a particular player win everything because he is much better than his handicap, which will be blatantly obvious if he started the year at 48 and ended it in the teens, their judgement is not good. If you're a member of a club that allows this level of banditry to go on unchecked then good luck to you but I'm guessing the social side could be a little fraught!

 

[wjemather]

I simply described what they did!

*what you think they did.

 

[clubchamp98]

*what you think they did.

What they did.

Keep taking a word out every post you will get there in the end.

Like I said “ listen to players “ get your head out of the rule book.

 

[clubchamp98]

You did and they did the right thing

A good club is a group of people who play golf and socialise together. The committee's job is to maintain harmony as well as applying the rules of golf. A good committee member has experience and good judgement. Good judgement is subjective and if a committee let's a particular player win everything because he is much better than his handicap, which will be blatantly obvious if he started the year at 48 and ended it in the teens, their judgement is not good. If you're a member of a club that allows this level of banditry to go on unchecked then good luck to you but I'm guessing the social side could be a little fraught!

I think it’s more than that.
The comittiee was protecting the established players from new and improving players just hoovering up all the prizes.
This is where WHS is poor as its computer based and dosnt see or hear what players are saying.

What other sport would let a new player shoot scores that the best player in the club has no chance of achieving.
Normally anyone taking up a sport has to work their way up to winning something eventually.
In golf now it seems a decent handicap can let you win instantly.

 

[Steve Wilkes]

I would hope the survey would trigger some improvements before then. Otherwise there is a risk of some clubs going their own way.

This is my hope, that clubs who don't like WHS, go and do their own thing and leave the rest to carry on in peace, because changing it for a few might only cock it up for the majority

 

[IanMac]

I think it’s more than that.
The comittiee was protecting the established players from new and improving players just hoovering up all the prizes.
This is where WHS is poor as its computer based and dosnt see or hear what players are saying.

What other sport would let a new player shoot scores that the best player in the club has no chance of achieving.
Normally anyone taking up a sport has to work their way up to winning something eventually.
In golf now it seems a decent handicap can let you win instantly.

Yes, agreed.

I'm guessing some of us grew up playing junior golf. This problem was dealt with year after year in junior golf. The ladies section was ruthless thankfully.

We weren't allowed to play in the majority of adult competitions until we were 18 or cat 1. We could play in some when we were 15 or cat 2.

Anyone starting their golfing life by joining a club and expecting to play in competitions before finding a level is the issue we now see more and more. Surely it's better to work upwards from scratch?!?

 

[RichA]

I think it’s more than that.
The comittiee was protecting the established players from new and improving players just hoovering up all the prizes.
This is where WHS is poor as its computer based and dosnt see or hear what players are saying.

What other sport would let a new player shoot scores that the best player in the club has no chance of achieving.
Normally anyone taking up a sport has to work their way up to winning something eventually.
In golf now it seems a decent handicap can let you win instantly.

Kinda get what you're saying, but two things I don't understand are:
why don't larger clubs have regular separate comps for lower handicaps, if there is demand;
why do lower handicaps even want to enter the twice weekly Stableford comps, believing that they will be fleeced by improvers or handicap cheats?
I guess I'm coming back to my suggestion of pre-defined divisional competition again.

 

[IanMac]

Kinda get what you're saying, but two things I don't understand are:
why don't larger clubs have regular separate comps for lower handicaps, if there is demand;
why do lower handicaps even want to enter the twice weekly Stableford comps, believing that they will be fleeced by improvers or handicap cheats?
I guess I'm coming back to my suggestion of pre-defined divisional competition again.

Many lower handicappers in clubs where there are lots of improvers winning competitions, because there is no proper control from a decent committee, will move on to a better organised club. The clubs they leave will be constantly looking for new members and will struggle and eventually go bust.

 

[D-S]

I would hope the survey would trigger some improvements before then. Otherwise there is a risk of some clubs going their own way.

I am fairly certain that the results will be framed in such a a way so as to say, WHS has helped millions of new players get into the game, it has greatly helped inclusion and participation across the world has increased by x% thanks to this well regarded system. It has brought the world of golf closer together than ever and the survey proves what a great innovation it has been etc. etc.
I don’t necessarily believe these things but the views of a proportion of a minority of players whose handicaps are significantly lower than the average 17 for men and 27 for women coming from only the third largest jurisdiction among WHS stakeholders will not drive the sort of changes that this small, small minority of WHS participants want.

 

[RichA]

Many lower handicappers in clubs where there are lots of improvers winning competitions, because there is no proper control from a decent committee, will move on to a better organised club. The clubs they leave will be constantly looking for new members and will struggle and eventually go bust.

But why is it our culture that pretty much everybody wants and gets to compete in every club comp?
I can't think of any other amateur, recreational sport that pits those verging on elite amateur status in direct competition with opponents who play purely for pleasure at a relatively miserable standard - and everything in between.
Yet we would traditionally separate female or junior golfers from male adults of a similar standard.

 

[Banchory Buddha]

This may have been the perception, but unless your old club were making up their own rules, initial handicaps were calculated using a set formula, with the result only adjusted if appropriate based on knowledge of the players ability.

So he's right. There was a calculation (I know this) and then knowledge of the players play was sued to adjust the calculation if thought necessary

Is it unusual for competitions in the UK to be split in hcp catagories? Back when I still played comps in Austria, I would quite often win my hcp group (say 36-28 or 27-18 etc). Once, playing off 28 I scored 49 stableford points - the most scored by anyone on the day but only won my hcp group (which seems fair). This would tackle some of the issues reported here

It wouldn't.

Most clubs already do this

It doesn;t solve the issue of winner on the day

This suggestion has been done to death, sorry

 

[Banchory Buddha]

Kinda get what you're saying, but two things I don't understand are:
why don't larger clubs have regular separate comps for lower handicaps, if there is demand;
why do lower handicaps even want to enter the twice weekly Stableford comps, believing that they will be fleeced by improvers or handicap cheats?
I guess I'm coming back to my suggestion of pre-defined divisional competition again.

Where's this humungous assumption coming from? My club has two stablefords through the entire year on a Saturday, and I think one on a Wednesday

 

[Banchory Buddha]

But why is it our culture that pretty much everybody wants and gets to compete in every club comp?
I can't think of any other amateur, recreational sport that pits those verging on elite amateur status in direct competition with opponents who play purely for pleasure at a relatively miserable standard - and everything in between.
Yet we would traditionally separate female or junior golfers from male adults of a similar standard.

Football
Rugby
Just about every sport out there. Right enough few have an equalising system like golf does, but all sports go from dufffer to elite

 

[IanMac]

This is my hope, that clubs who don't like WHS, go and do their own thing and leave the rest to carry on in peace, because changing it for a few might only cock it up for the majority

We could go back to club golf and pub golf? WHS is perfect for pub golfers.

I suspect Golf Ireland would move to make further adjustments.

 

[IanM]

I would hope the survey would trigger some improvements before then. Otherwise there is a risk of some clubs going their own way.

Not sure about clubs, but I know of some groups of players who have been doing so for a while. No club comps, not cards in, but maintain their own handicaps within their group.

 

[RichA]

Where's this humungous assumption coming from? My club has two stablefords through the entire year on a Saturday, and I think one on a Wednesday.

They're very common at other clubs and folks on here are mentioning getting beaten in Stablefords on a fairly regular basis. I'm not just talking about "majors". Most regular roll-ups and swindles are played to Stableford points.

 

[RichA]

Football
Rugby
Just about every sport out there. Right enough few have an equalising system like golf does, but all sports go from dufffer to elite

I'm my experience football and rugby do not pit teams verging on elite amateur status directly against duffers.

 

[D-S]

Not sure about clubs, but I know of some groups of players who have been doing so for a while. No club comps, not cards in, but maintain their own handicaps within their group.

That is certainly true today with many big groups having their own system of handicapping people dependent on their performance in their own weekly sweep or roll up.
However this was also the case before WHS which might suggest that some on here might have slightly rose tinted glasses.

 

[IanMac]

I'm my experience football and rugby do not pit teams verging on elite amateur status directly against duffers.

I can't think of anyone I grew up with who still plays golf and needs more than one shot per hole. Of course we all had a go back then but you have to have some level of skill to enjoy a sport. Some didn't and they gave up.

The manufacturers of course want to make everyone believe anyone can play the game. Just get a fitting and spend money on the latest driver etc. We all know it's rubbish, especially if we have played the game for more than 5 years. It's not easy and most people can't do it well.

Manufacturers don't like long term golfers because we don't spend so much money on equipment. I've been playing for 47 years and only had one brand new set of irons in that time and 4 second hand sets. I've had a few putters and a few different drivers but typically I could have a driver for more than 6 years.

WHS is an attempt to make the game more accessible. Manufacturers are the winners and I don't really mind that however I think many established golfers are losers but that's not so much of a loss to manufacturers.