Official WHS Survey

[Slab]

45 points won today from a 21 handicapper, second was 41 points from a 29 handicapper, 69 played.
System works for them.

You do seem to suffer from regularly being in comps won with high points by high handicappers

We’ve probably all been similarly scunnered in a comp or three over time (think I’ve seen it twice this year in Open comps I’ve played) but you seem to experience it way more often than that
Leaving aside blaming whs and/or an increase in handicap allowance, do the comps take any steps to encourage a wider spread of placings/prizes ?

 

[clubchamp98]

But I previously asked this...

and was told this...

So was it not fully automated?

Years ago !
At my old club.
For a new player Your three cards were a guide as to your ability, but they gave you a lower handicap by a shot or two to stop you winning all the prizes .
This was then looked at by the handicap comittiee on a regular basis until you were more or less on the cap that suited your ability.
Wasn’t perfect and some said a little unfair .
It wasn’t automated at all.

 

[rulefan]

45 points won today from a 21 handicapper, second was 41 points from a 29 handicapper, 69 played.
System works for them.

Were either of them 'improving' players? What was their handicap history? How active is your handicap committee?

 

[D-S]

How active is your handicap committee?

Out of interest how active do you think the iGolf Handicap Committee is?

 

[wjemather]

Years ago !
At my old club.
For a new player Your three cards were a guide as to your ability, but they gave you a lower handicap by a shot or two to stop you winning all the prizes .
This was then looked at by the handicap comittiee on a regular basis until you were more or less on the cap that suited your ability.
Wasn’t perfect and some said a little unfair .
It wasn’t automated at all.

This may have been the perception, but unless your old club were making up their own rules, initial handicaps were calculated using a set formula, with the result only adjusted if appropriate based on knowledge of the players ability.

 

[Deleted member 30522]

Out of interest how active do you think the iGolf Handicap Committee is?

 

[IanM]

Out of interest how active do you think the iGolf Handicap Committee is?

Last year England Golf said over 60,000 players were on iGolf. If they averaged 2 rounds a month each, that's a lots of scores to look at every month.

I assume they have some sort of tech solution to review exceptions. But I wonder?

 

[D-S]

Last year England Golf said over 60,000 players were on iGolf. If they averaged 2 rounds a month each, that's a lots of scores to look at every month.

I assume they have some sort of tech solution to review exceptions. But I wonder?

If there is some excellent tech, shouldn’t this be made available to handicap committees?

 

[IanM]

If there is some excellent tech, shouldn’t this be made available to handicap committees?

"IF" being the key word!

It is fairly easy to put together a report based on specific criteria.

 

[Dunesman]

"IF" being the key word!

It is fairly easy to put together a report based on specific criteria.

That is a question though, if somebody knows : do EG look or make any analysis of competition results, as distinct from differentials in isolation ?
i.e. do they have data that would show/confirm that low handicappers are not winning in proportion to their numbers ? Or on the issue of igolf, are wins by igolf players in opens in line with the expectation ?

 

[D-S]

That is a question though, if somebody knows : do EG look or make any analysis of competition results, as distinct from differentials in isolation ?
i.e. do they have data that would show/confirm that low handicappers are not winning in proportion to their numbers ? Or on the issue of igolf, are wins by igolf players in opens in line with the expectation ?

If they do, they certainly don’t publish it anywhere.
I’m not sure it would be in their interests to make any information available that would cast any doubt over the validity of iGolf as this is a new revenue stream of around £2.4 million per year for them. They redistribute some of this money to the counties as they are perceived to have potentially lots out on affiliation fees from some of these players who might still be club members if iGolf didn’t exist.

 

[Dunesman]

Is England Golf not the servant of the clubs ? Is the tail wagging the dog ?

 

[Klimski]

Is it unusual for competitions in the UK to be split in hcp catagories? Back when I still played comps in Austria, I would quite often win my hcp group (say 36-28 or 27-18 etc). Once, playing off 28 I scored 49 stableford points - the most scored by anyone on the day but only won my hcp group (which seems fair). This would tackle some of the issues reported here

 

[clubchamp98]

This may have been the perception, but unless your old club were making up their own rules, initial handicaps were calculated using a set formula, with the result only adjusted if appropriate based on knowledge of the players ability.

Might have been your perception.
I’m just explaining what the club did!
Most other clubs did the same thing listening to players , you should try that

 

[wjemather]

Is it unusual for competitions in the UK to be split in hcp catagories? Back when I still played comps in Austria, I would quite often win my hcp group (say 36-28 or 27-18 etc). Once, playing off 28 I scored 49 stableford points - the most scored by anyone on the day but only won my hcp group (which seems fair). This would tackle some of the issues reported here

Not at all. The authorities in GB&I have long recommended the use of divisions/flights.

 

[wjemather]

Might have been your perception.
I’m just explaining what the club did!
Most other clubs did the same thing listening to players , you should try that

I simply described the actual rules/guidance that handicap secretaries were supposed to follow; there was no perception involved.
If any club was doing something different, they shouldn't have been.

 

[Dunesman]

Is it unusual for competitions in the UK to be split in hcp catagories? Back when I still played comps in Austria, I would quite often win my hcp group (say 36-28 or 27-18 etc). Once, playing off 28 I scored 49 stableford points - the most scored by anyone on the day but only won my hcp group (which seems fair). This would tackle some of the issues reported here

I dont know how common it is, but have been a member of three clubs over the last 20 years. None had categories until my present club introduced them this year. Prompted by unhappiness with WHS, and I dont remember hearing any thing about introducing categories before that. They were only introduced for what might be regarded as the lowest tier of competitions. Board and medal comps were unaltered - but they are the ones with the higher prestige. And that has left us with a problem now, with a feeling that WHS has been proven unsuutable, but categories arent an option for those main competitions.
Categories, and their promotion, seems like a very poor fix in the first place, effectively recognising WHS doesnt work as well as the old system. And no fix at all for the comps that people really care about. I could see us going rogue for a year or two, with an expectation that WHS will at some point be amended in some way, and catch up.

 

[D-S]

I dont know how common it is, but have been a member of three clubs over the last 20 years. None had categories until my present club introduced them this year. Prompted by unhappiness with WHS, and I dont remember hearing any thing about introducing categories before that. They were only introduced for what might be regarded as the lowest tier of competitions. Board and medal comps were unaltered - but they are the ones with the higher prestige. And that has left us with a problem now, with a feeling that WHS has been proven unsuutable, but categories arent an option for those main competitions.
Categories, and their promotion, seems like a very poor fix in the first place, effectively recognising WHS doesnt work as well as the old system. And no fix at all for the comps that people really care about. I could see us going rogue for a year or two, with an expectation that WHS will at some point be amended in some way, and catch up.

The next possible revision of anything significant within WHS would only come about in 2028.
Even then I do not foresee any major changes. This last time in 2024 (4 years after inception) we had some minor calculation of CHs and the coming in to line with the rest of the world with CR-Par as well as the ‘acceptability’ of a very small % of 4BB scores. There was a debate about the introduction of some of these measures before the inception of WHS, I have heard of little or no possible changes at the next revision.

 

[Deleted member 36483]

The next possible revision of anything significant within WHS would only come about in 2028.
Even then I do not foresee any major changes. This last time in 2024 (4 years after inception) we had some minor calculation of CHs and the coming in to line with the rest of the world with CR-Par as well as the ‘acceptability’ of a very small % of 4BB scores. There was a debate about the introduction of some of these measures before the inception of WHS, I have heard of little or no possible changes at the next revision.

I would hope the survey would trigger some improvements before then. Otherwise there is a risk of some clubs going their own way.

 

[clubchamp98]

Is it unusual for competitions in the UK to be split in hcp catagories? Back when I still played comps in Austria, I would quite often win my hcp group (say 36-28 or 27-18 etc). Once, playing off 28 I scored 49 stableford points - the most scored by anyone on the day but only won my hcp group (which seems fair). This would tackle some of the issues reported here

Winning your handicap group / division is fine but most comps here have an overall winner who gets the trophy.