Official WHS Survey

D-S · Sunday at 9:42 PM

Banchory Buddha said:
Golf empire really isn't..the difference is vast, you have almost no individual opens at all in England

You have to play with someone else to get your card *marked*

A marker *marks*.your card, before dotgolf software arrived nobody had even heard of an "attester"

That ok?

There are a lot of individual Opens in England.

We are fairly typical and we have a 36 hole scratch individual Open, an individual handicap Open, a Junior individual Open and a Senior individual Open.

This is the norm around here.

nickjdavis · Sunday at 9:44 PM

Banchory Buddha said:
Well my experience of 40 years trumps yours, as a member at 7 clubs around the UK, and in gawd knows how many opens over the years. I'd guess more than a thousand

But to the point, WHS is 4 years olds not 25, how the hell does your 25.years translate into a system that doesn't exist?

What I do know from my time.in England, clubs are very insular, there's very little cross contamination, opens barely exist, you don't have the mix of experience we do in Scotland. I take you opinion on this with a pinch of nothing

Because its 25 years of observing human habits on the golf course. I personally have not observed folks just "giving up on a round of golf" simply because they've decided that they have no longer got a chance of winning after a poor opening few holes. I never saw it under UHS, I don't see it under WHS...though the handicap system in place isn't relevant to those observations and I wasnt trying to make it so.

I cant help reporting what I have observed. I cant help that it doesn't match your experience. If only yours and IanMac's opinions are valid then we would be in a very sorry place....though we do seem to be getting there quickly.

I will sleep well tonight knowing that you've saved yourself some salt.

clubchamp98 · Sunday at 11:56 PM

Banchory Buddha said:
Golf empire really isn't..the difference is vast, you have almost no individual opens at all in England

You have to play with someone else to get your card *marked*

A marker *marks*.your card, before dotgolf software arrived nobody had even heard of an "attester"

That ok?

In the USA it says Attester on the card not Marker.
Another Americanism.

Banchory Buddha · Monday at 7:54 AM

D-S said:
There are a lot of individual Opens in England.

We are fairly typical and we have a 36 hole scratch individual Open, an individual handicap Open, a Junior individual Open and a Senior individual Open.

This is the norm around here.

Mate, there's not, we've done this before on here. I lived in NW England, it was a nightmare, most didn't have an open at all, to such an extent you call 4BBBs "Mens Open", and then if there is an individual open 9 out of 10 it'll be 5 and under or even lower.

Open tournaments in England and Scotland are an entirely different thing

D-S · Monday at 8:39 AM

I beg to differ, your statement that there are almost no individual Opens in England is simply wrong.

Gloucestershire is in England, most clubs around here have them in summer, there are even a few winter individual Opens coming up.

RichA · Monday at 8:48 AM

Banchory Buddha said:
Mate, there's not, we've done this before on here. I lived in NW England, it was a nightmare, most didn't have an open at all, to such an extent you call 4BBBs "Mens Open", and then if there is an individual open 9 out of 10 it'll be 5 and under or even lower.

Open tournaments in England and Scotland are an entirely different thing

Arthur Wedge · Monday at 9:06 AM

Confused at a statement that there are very little opens in England ?! Each county has loads of them

rulefan · Monday at 9:31 AM

Arthur Wedge said:
Confused at a statement that there are very little opens in England ?! Each county has loads of them

Next year, there are over 100 in North Yorkshire alone.

Banchory Buddha · Monday at 1:33 PM

RichA said:
Search result for individual opens in NW England from Golf Empire website...

11/10/2024: Green Golf Events @ Wallasey Golf Club - £95.00 per person

07/12/2024: Individual Open @ Carden Park Golf Club - £30.00 per person

14/03/2025: Green Golf Events @ Leasowe Golf Club - £40.00 per person

23/03/2025: Green Golf Events @ Withington Golf Club - £40.00 per person

01/05/2025: Green Golf Events @ Carden Park Golf Club - £55.00 per person

02/05/2025: Green Golf Events @ Carden Park Golf Club - £55.00 per person

22/05/2025: Caldy Quart @ Caldy Golf Club - £50.00 per person

01/06/2025: Green Golf Events @ Chorlton-cum-Hardy Golf Club - £40.00 per person

05/06/2025: Gents Individual Open @ Wilmslow Golf Club - £60.00 per person

09/06/2025: Green Golf Events @ Dunham Forest Golf Club - £75.00 per person

14/06/2025: Gents Individual Open @ Aldersey Green Golf Club - £20.00 per person

20/06/2025: Green Golf Events @ Helsby Golf Club - £40.00 per person

25/06/2025: Bromborough Bowl @ Bromborough Golf Club - £45.00 per person

17/07/2025: Cheshire Cat @ Stockport & Wilmslow Golf Club - £0.00 per person [Price is still TBC]

20/07/2025: Green Golf Events @ Didsbury Golf Club - £40.00 per person

01/08/2025: Prestbury Open @ Prestbury Golf Club - £75.00 per person

01/08/2025: Gents Individual Open @ Stockport Golf Club - £50.00 per person

24/08/2025: Bromborough Masters @ Bromborough Golf Club - £37.00 per person

24/08/2025: Green Golf Events @ Mere Golf Resort & Spa - £75.00 per person

25/08/2025: Mere Trophy @ Mere Golf Resort & Spa - £60.00 per person

28/08/2025: Green Golf Events @ Prestbury Golf Club - £75.00 per person

17/10/2025: Green Golf Events @ Wallasey Golf Club - £120.00 per person

12/10/2024: Gents Individual Open @ Kendal Golf Club - £20.00 per person

19/10/2024: Gents Individual Open @ Kendal Golf Club - £20.00 per person

18/04/2025: Gents Individual Open @ Appleby Golf Club - £20.00 per person

27/04/2025: Individual Open @ Carus Green Golf Club - £38.00 per person

09/05/2025: Charity Individual Open @ Appleby Golf Club - £15.00 per person

17/05/2025: Brackenber Crystal @ Appleby Golf Club - £30.00 per person

08/06/2025: WG Martin Memorial @ Ulverston Golf Club - £35.00 per person

15/06/2025: Underley Salver @ Kirkby Lonsdale Golf Club - £25.00 per person

22/06/2025: Individual Open @ Carus Green Golf Club - £38.00 per person

29/06/2025: Green Golf Events @ Bentham Golf Club - £40.00 per person

11/07/2025: Green Golf Events @ Carus Green Golf Club - £42.50 per person

30/08/2025: Gents Individual Open @ Kirkby Lonsdale Golf Club - £25.00 per person

28/09/2025: Individual Open @ Carus Green Golf Club - £38.00 per person

28/09/2025: Green Golf Events @ Windermere Golf Club - £45.00 per person

08/10/2024: Green Golf Events @ Fairhaven Golf Club - £70.00 per person

27/10/2024: Gents Individual Open @ Accrington & District Golf Club - £12.00 per person

31/10/2024: Individual Open @ Bury Golf Club - £17.50 per person

07/11/2024: Proper Golf Series @ Hesketh &Hillside Golf Club - £199.99 per person

23/02/2025: Individual Open @ Fleetwood Golf Club - £25.00 per person

28/03/2025: Green Golf Events @ St. Annes Old Links Golf Club - £80.00 per person

04/04/2025: Green Golf Events @ Stand Golf Club - £35.00 per person

06/04/2025: Crosby Challenge Plate @ West Lancashire Golf Club - £60.00 per person

14/04/2025: Green Golf Events @ Manchester Golf Club - £55.00 per person

20/04/2025: Green Golf Events @ Clitheroe Golf Club - £60.00 per person

04/05/2025: Hesketh Henriques @ Hesketh Golf Club - £0.00 per person [Price is still TBC]

11/05/2025: Green Golf Events @ Fleetwood Golf Club - £50.00 per person

16/05/2025: World Golf Competition @ Royal Lytham & St. Annes Golf Club - £0.00 per person [POA]

18/05/2025: Formby Hare @ Formby Golf Club - £0.00 per person [Price is still TBC]

19/05/2025: World Golf Competition @ Royal Lytham & St. Annes Golf Club - £0.00 per person [POA]

22/05/2025: Green Golf Events @ Bolton Old Links Golf Club - £40.00 per person

23/05/2025: Jacklin Trophy @ Chorley Golf Club - £50.00 per person

23/05/2025: Green Golf Events @ Bolton Golf Club - £40.00 per person

06/06/2025: Gents Individual Open @ Ormskirk Golf Club - £60.00 per person

08/06/2025: Lathom Eagle @ Ormskirk Golf Club- £65.00 per person

15/06/2025: Hulbert Trophy @ Manchester Golf Club - £60.00 per person

21/06/2025: Gents Individual Open @ Blackburn Golf Club - £25.00 per person

29/06/2025: Gents Individual Open @ Clitheroe Golf Club - £40.00 per person

04/07/2025: Gents Individual Open @ Grange Park (Lancashire) Golf Club - £35.00 per person

06/07/2025: Pleasington Antlers @ Pleasington Golf Club - £0.00 per person [Price is still TBC]

12/07/2025: Pendle Witch @ Clitheroe Golf Club- £55.00 per person

20/07/2025: Gents Individual Open @ Haydock Park Golf Club - £20.00 per person

01/08/2025: Gents Individual Open @ Manchester Golf Club - £50.00 per person

01/08/2025: Childwall Trophy @ Childwall Golf Club - £45.00 per person

08/08/2025: Green Golf Events @ Shaw Hill Golf & Country Club - £40.00 per person

11/08/2025: North West of England Links Championship @ Hillside & Royal Birkdale Golf Club- £0.00 per person [Price is still TBC]

18/08/2025: Green Golf Events @ Manchester Golf Club - £55.00 per person

07/09/2025: Gents Individual Open @ West Lancashire Golf Club - £0.00 per person [Price is still TBC]

14/09/2025: Green Golf Events @ North Manchester Golf Club - £40.00 per person

28/09/2025: Harry Vardon Trophy @ Bury Golf Club - £35.00 per person

I've lived in England, play a ton of opens myself. That's the entirety of the NW Eng, click through those and many will be restricted to 5 or less, you're not comparing anything like the same thing. You simply don't have many down there, I only played two in my time there and that was the Bromobourough Bowl 36er (also retricted to 7 and under at the time) and Walton Hall. It's a nightmare of clicking, mens open, oops noep it's a 4BBB, mens open, oops nope it's a cat 1 event, mens open, oops nope some other restriction.

Anyway, can we get this back on track

*edit* And look at the prices

Banchory Buddha · Monday at 1:34 PM

D-S said:
I beg to differ, your statement that there are almost no individual Opens in England is simply wrong.

Gloucestershire is in England, most clubs around here have them in summer, there are even a few winter individual Opens coming up.

Handicap limit?
4BBB or actually opens?
I've not lived down there so can;t possibly comment, but the Midlands and NW England is very poor.

Banchory Buddha · Monday at 1:36 PM

Arthur Wedge said:
Confused at a statement that there are very little opens in England ?! Each county has loads of them

*Men's individual unrestricted (or decent limit like 20+) are rare.

There are tons of Opens, you have the annoying habit of holding "Mens Opens" only for them to actually be 4BBB, or a scratch event. The number of *opens* held in English counties v Scottish areras is really low. Not sure why folks are getting defensive about it, it's just a fact

RichA · Monday at 1:57 PM

Banchory Buddha said:
I've lived in England, play a ton of opens myself. That's the entirety of the NW Eng, click through those and many will be restricted to 5 or less, you're not comparing anything like the same thing. You simply don't have many down there, I only played two in my time there and that was the Bromobourough Bowl 36er (also retricted to 7 and under at the time) and Walton Hall. It's a nightmare of clicking, mens open, oops noep it's a 4BBB, mens open, oops nope it's a cat 1 event, mens open, oops nope some other restriction.

Anyway, can we get this back on track

*edit* And look at the prices

That list of 70-odd are all singles opens in just 3 NW England counties.
The Green Golf events seem to have an upper HI limit of 28.
The others I clicked through out of the first page, I only found 2 with single figure limits.
The prices seem to be pretty average visitor green fees.
Not sure what your basing your assertions on.

D-S · Monday at 2:08 PM

Banchory Buddha said:
Handicap limit?
4BBB or actually opens?
I've not lived down there so can;t possibly comment, but the Midlands and NW England is very poor.

Men’s, not scratch, handicap limit normally 20+, individual not team. Most club have one.

They also run, separately on different days, 4BB and pairs Opens, mixed and Seniors.

They also run Junior, Senior and Scratch (normally 36 hole) individual Opens. Some clubs have Open weeks.

I have no clue what Scotland does or what the North West does but this part of England (and this is typical of all of the South West) is certainly not as you have chosen to describe all of England.

clubchamp98 · Monday at 2:13 PM

My clubs on that list .
It’s open singles 28 cap limit.
Must be 16 yrs and over.

Banchory Buddha · Monday at 2:21 PM

RichA said:
That list of 70-odd are all singles opens in just 3 NW England counties. [1]
The Green Golf events seem to have an upper HI limit of 28.[2]
The others I clicked through out of the first page, I only found 2 with single figure limits.[3]
The prices seem to be pretty average visitor green fees. [4]
Not sure what your basing your assertions on.[5]

[1] Yes, Cumbria, Lancashire and Cheshire - that's a bloody massive area. I'm comparing that to Moray and Aberdeenshire
[2] Yeah that seems a new thing, but look at the prices!

[3] Bury for eg is 12, but a scratch event, so not a handicap open
[3] & Look again
[4] So again nothing like Scotland

[5] Reality. If I could have played tons of opens in England, I would have, I couldn't. The only times I played other clubs was therefore inter-club matches.

Banchory Buddha · Monday at 2:22 PM

D-S said:
Men’s, not scratch, handicap limit normally 20+, individual not team. Most club have one.

They also run, separately on different days, 4BB and pairs Opens, mixed and Seniors.

They also run Junior, Senior and Scratch (normally 36 hole) individual Opens. Some clubs have Open weeks.

I have no clue what Scotland does or what the North West does but this part of England (and this is typical of all of the South West) is certainly not as you have chosen to describe all of England.

Yup, that's much more like north east Scotland. It's not at all like NW England. And the prices, oh man you wouldn't play many anyway

Golfloveruk · Monday at 9:35 PM

clubchamp98 said:
This is spot on and imo what is the main problem .

In the past we all had bad spells and good spells.

You either just rode it out or you got on the practice ground and sorted your game out.

Now under WHS you don’t need to do that because the system will give you a few shots back instead.
It’s made golfers lazy and not want to improve.

But when you have the extra shots and your game comes back that’s where the silly scores are coming from.
It’s a mess and something needs to be done.

The whole handicap system makes people lazy and not want to improve! Very few actually put any effort to improve beyond their natural ability.
Most players don’t want a low handicap even if they say they do. They want a handicap that allows them to shoot 40 points.

IanMac · Monday at 10:28 PM

Golfloveruk said:
The whole handicap system makes people lazy and not want to improve! Very few actually put any effort to improve beyond their natural ability.
Most players don’t want a low handicap even if they say they do. They want a handicap that allows them to shoot 40 points.

Please clarify? Do you mean we shouldn't have any handicap system or are you saying that WHS makes players lazier than the system before?

Golfloveruk · Monday at 10:44 PM

IanMac said:
Please clarify? Do you mean we shouldn't have any handicap system or are you saying that WHS makes players lazier than the system before?

I didn’t say we shouldn’t have any handicap system or WHS specifically makes people lazier! Any handicap system that isn’t heavily biased towards lower players removes the incentive to improve.

I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve heard someone be happy about getting a shot back. Or people grumble that they have been pulled but didn’t win anything.

IanMac · Monday at 11:25 PM

Golfloveruk said:
I didn’t say we shouldn’t have any handicap system or WHS specifically makes people lazier! Any handicap system that isn’t heavily biased towards lower players removes the incentive to improve.

I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve heard someone be happy about getting a shot back. Or people grumble that they have been pulled but didn’t win anything.

What handicap system is biased towards lower players? Is WHS?

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