New Rules 2019 - Out of Bounds

[clubchamp98]

What about a ball in a penalty area designated as a no play zone?

Sounds like the England match this week.

 

[Colin L]

Yes it dosnt make sense , but with his shots he’s lying even with you
but at the end of the day it’s just my opinion .
There’s to much guess work everyone knows where the tee is you don’t have to guess.

If it was NPR from boundary fence then fair enough but who came up with “drop it on the fairway “even if you missed by 50yds.
You can’t drop on the fairway from a water hazard .

That's not correct. You may well be able to drop on the fairway from a water hazard. Perhaps you just meant that it's not guaranteed in the way the drop from the OOB or lost ball is?

 

[Colin L]

Sounds like the England match this week.

That's a great deal wittier than whatever it was I had in mind would have been.

 

[clubchamp98]

That's not correct. You may well be able to drop on the fairway from a water hazard. Perhaps you just meant that it's not guaranteed in the way the drop from the OOB or lost ball is?

Exactly this is the main problem for me.
You could miss by 50yds and drop on the fairway ? “ who came up with that”?

 

[rulefan]

Exactly this is the main problem for me.
You could miss by 50yds and drop on the fairway ? “ who came up with that”?

You could miss by 50yds and drop on the fairway at the same distance lying 3
You could miss by 50 yards and play a provisional straight down the middle 80+ yards longer lying 3

 

[duncan mackie]

You could miss by 50yds and drop on the fairway at the same distance lying 3
You could miss by 50 yards and play a provisional straight down the middle 80+ yards longer lying 3

And given the double arc effect, the wider you miss the more distance proceeding under this rule will cost you in the direction of the green.

 

[clubchamp98]

And given the double arc effect, the wider you miss the more distance proceeding under this rule will cost you in the direction of the green.

i can see the arguments already “ I will drop here this is how far I normally carry it”
Who has the final say where the ball is dropped when oob or lost I n medal?
If there’s a disagreement and marker refuses to sign card .?

What happens if your op in matchplay disagrees with your proposed drop?
I can see this causing real problems in both forms. It’s open to abuse and let’s be honest here, some will try and use this to gain an advantage.

If it’s to speed play up I think it will work mostly , but in some circumstances it will make it worse if someone is abusing it.
We have discussed this at the club some really like it some really don’t.
This will give the committee more decisions to make imo , with the disputed drops.

 

[clubchamp98]

You could miss by 50yds and drop on the fairway at the same distance lying 3
You could miss by 50 yards and play a provisional straight down the middle 80+ yards longer lying 3

Some may be able to but not all.
You may hit your provisional oob as well this takes that out of the question.
So in reality 3/5/7 off the tee is now out of the game except in exceptional circumstances (.I.e. duff off tee oob)

 

[Colin L]

Some may be able to but not all.
You may hit your provisional oob as well this takes that out of the question.
So in reality 3/5/7 off the tee is now out of the game except in exceptional circumstances (.I.e. duff off tee oob)

Which should make the game a good deal more enjoyable for many.

 

[duncan mackie]

Some may be able to but not all.
You may hit your provisional oob as well this takes that out of the question.
So in reality 3/5/7 off the tee is now out of the game except in exceptional circumstances (.I.e. duff off tee oob)

But they are already 'out of play' for handicapping, stableford and bogey competitions....and, effectively, for many in medal as well.

Please don't missunderstand me; I completely understand your primary concern. It's just that I don't see it as such a huge issue in practice.

As to the other points, there's no difference between these and other such differences of opinion. The rules cover them as they have always done. For obvious OOB you are in exactly the same position as a ball entering a lateral water hazard; for a lost ball it's difficult to argue with where the player has spent their 3 minutes looking!

 

[clubchamp98]

ColinL, let me try one other approach to explain my thought.

Forget the new local rule and consider these two scenarios. 1) you hit a ball into the middle of a dried out water hazard. The rules permit you to play it if you chose to but the rules give you the option of a drop if desired. 2) You hit the ball OOB. You find it and decide it could be easily played from there back to the course. But you are not allowed to play it. Why is there no drop option for an OOB ball?

Richard Tufts explained the rationale behind dropping from a hazard.

When a ball cannot be played from a water hazard and the player elects to drop behind the hazard, the penalty
of one stroke is the equivalent of the recovery stroke which the player might otherwise have played [Rule 26-1].

There is no drop option because there is no recovery stroke from OOB that might have otherwise been played. A drop from OOB would be the "equivalent" of a stroke that is not allowed. A ball submerged in a WH is obviously not playable, but the rules don't prohibit trying. An OOB ball might be playable but the rules prohibit it.

The proposed LR makes dropping from OOB more costly than normal but it violates the above principle because it approximates a stroke from OOB....a prohibited stroke.

(Wheeew...that took an hour to write. If it does not explain my position then I'll have to give up.)

You would need the permission of the land owner if the land oob was not the property of the golf club.
That’s the difference.

 

[nickjdavis]

So what happens if you hit your tee shot clearly out of bounds and there is no doubt that the ball is OOB. Do you have the option as the player to say "hey I've got a pretty good idea of where that went out of bounds, instead of playing 3 off the tee, I'm just going to walk up there where it went OOB and drop a ball in the relief area as determined by my best estimate as to where I think the ball went OOB"....or are you committed, knowing that the ball went OOB, to playing a third off the tee?

 

[Colin L]

So what happens if you hit your tee shot clearly out of bounds and there is no doubt that the ball is OOB. Do you have the option as the player to say "hey I've got a pretty good idea of where that went out of bounds, instead of playing 3 off the tee, I'm just going to walk up there where it went OOB and drop a ball in the relief area as determined by my best estimate as to where I think the ball went OOB"....or are you committed, knowing that the ball went OOB, to playing a third off the tee?

Your options are:
Put another ball into play from the tee under stroke and distance which will be your 3rd stroke and you must continue with that ball.
Go forward and work out the relief area in which you would drop a ball in accordance with the local rule.
Drop a ball there, play it as your 4th stroke and carry on.
Or, decide not to do that but to go back to the tee to play under stroke and distance.

 

[nickjdavis]

mmm....yesterday I played in a club comp and as it happened managed to crush my ball close to OOB right. As a responsible committee member trying to encourage players to hit provisionals when they think their ball might be in trouble (I'm guessing that most of us are not at all surprised at how many folks don't bother!!) I duly hit a provisional and duly hit it right into fairly lush rough only a few yards off the fairway.

We saw exactly where my original ball had landed close to the OOB fence but found no sign of it during our search....before I went to play my provisional I took the other three players (two ex-captains like my self, and next years captain...all of us members of the Competitions committee) aside and explained how the 2019 optional local rule would operate if implemented. I demonstrated how to determine the two reference points , one of which would be the edge of the fairway some 30yds from the point where in all likelihood my ball crossed the course boundary. I then explained that the relief area extended two clublengths outside of these reference points meaning that I could be taking my 4th shot from a nice lie on the fairway.....rather than the rich tangly lie in the rough that my provisional had put me in.

Due to my particularly poor play there were two or three other examples where I'd have been better off not playing a provisional/3rd off the tee and dropping in accordance with the proposed local rule - which is what prompted me to place the question last night as to whether I would be obliged to play a provisional or not if the new LR was available.

Suffice to say that the three blokes I played with were not overly impressed with the new LR!! I personally don't like it but can see how it would have some uses (and frankly would have been delighted with it earlier in the year when two weeks in a row I hit a ball cleanly over the dogleg of our 17th into what should have been open fairway and never saw the ball again) in helping alleviate against slow play in some circumstances.

 

[Colin L]

mmm....yesterday I played in a club comp and as it happened managed to crush my ball close to OOB right. As a responsible committee member trying to encourage players to hit provisionals when they think their ball might be in trouble (I'm guessing that most of us are not at all surprised at how many folks don't bother!!) I duly hit a provisional and duly hit it right into fairly lush rough only a few yards off the fairway.

We saw exactly where my original ball had landed close to the OOB fence but found no sign of it during our search....before I went to play my provisional I took the other three players (two ex-captains like my self, and next years captain...all of us members of the Competitions committee) aside and explained how the 2019 optional local rule would operate if implemented. I demonstrated how to determine the two reference points , one of which would be the edge of the fairway some 30yds from the point where in all likelihood my ball crossed the course boundary. I then explained that the relief area extended two clublengths outside of these reference points meaning that I could be taking my 4th shot from a nice lie on the fairway.....rather than the rich tangly lie in the rough that my provisional had put me in.

Due to my particularly poor play there were two or three other examples where I'd have been better off not playing a provisional/3rd off the tee and dropping in accordance with the proposed local rule - which is what prompted me to place the question last night as to whether I would be obliged to play a provisional or not if the new LR was available.

Suffice to say that the three blokes I played with were not overly impressed with the new LR!! I personally don't like it but can see how it would have some uses (and frankly would have been delighted with it earlier in the year when two weeks in a row I hit a ball cleanly over the dogleg of our 17th into what should have been open fairway and never saw the ball again) in helping alleviate against slow play in some circumstances.

Your three blokes might be more impressed when they find themselves in the position of wanting to use it. There seems to be a tendency to think resentfully of how it would advantage another player over yourself without thinking that in the wider scheme of golf, it is quite likely to be your turn to benefit next. The fairness of things is achieved over a whole round in which each and every player has access to the same rules; it is not necessarily discernible at a particular moment.

 

[atticusfinch]

You would need the permission of the land owner if the land oob was not the property of the golf club.
That’s the difference.

Are you saying the ROG don't prohibit playing it, property law does? If the OOB property is owned by the golf club you could play an OOB ball?

 

[clubchamp98]

Are you saying the ROG don't prohibit playing it, property law does? If the OOB property is owned by the golf club you could play an OOB ball?

I never said that at all.
There has to be boundaries the club will own some land but not always.

I don’t like this proposed LR, oob is off the course you are playing be it internal or external makes no difference.
Name one other sport where if the ball comes to rest out of the playing area you can just carry on ?

 

[rulefan]

Soccer, Rugby. Just stand outside the pitch and throw the ball back on.

 

[atticusfinch]

Soccer, Rugby. Just stand outside the pitch and throw the ball back on.

Regardless of the sport if the ball ends up OOB you have to hit "reset" to return it to play. In golf that is S&D. You move the ball from OOB to the field to reset. In golf that is walking to the tee, in soccer it is tossing the ball back on the field. The new OOB LR does not use a reset to get back in play, it just continues play like from a WH.

 

[clubchamp98]

Soccer, Rugby. Just stand outside the pitch and throw the ball back on.

Not true really if you hit it out they give the ball to your opponent!

How can you do that if a field belongs to a farmer or someone’s back garden.