Nearly Holed

[backwoodsman]

At the weekend a fellow competitor chipped in from off the green, hit the flag and ball very nearly dropped in the hole. Only not quite - ball wedged against the flag stick, but with only something a bit less than a quarter of the ball protruding above the lip. So technically not holed. FC just walked over and picked out the ball without removing the flag and allowing it to drop. As it was only a casual game, we did no more than suggest he didn't do that in a competition.

But the question is - if we'd insisted on the penalty for moving the ball without marking it, where should the ball have been replaced? If he "legally" moved it by removing the flag, and by some miracle it came out the hole, 17/4 says you put it on the lip. But for the "illegal" lifting, 20/1 requires it to be replaced where it was - which in this case he could have tried till the cows come home but wouldn't have got the ball to balance so gently against the stick. Is it correct to assume it would go on the lip?

 

[rulefan]

See 20-3d.
If a ball when placed fails to come to rest on the spot on which it was placed, there is no penalty and the ball must be replaced. If it still fails to come to rest on that spot:

 

[woody69]

17-4 Ball Resting Against Flagstick

When a player's ball rests against the flagstick in the hole and the ball is not holed, the player or another person authorised by him may move or remove the flagstick, and if the ball falls into the hole, the player is deemed to have holed out with his last stroke; otherwise, the ball, if moved, must be placed on the lip of the hole, without penalty

 

[Foxholer]

So 1 Shot Penalty and player has to manufacture ball resting against Flagstick before moving it and hoping it falls in (below level of lip).

Decision 17-4/1 is exactly these circumstances.

 

[rulefan]

So 1 Shot Penalty and player has to manufacture ball resting against Flagstick before moving it and hoping it falls in (below level of lip).

Decision 17-4/1 is exactly these circumstances.

What if the ball will not remain stationary against the flagstick?

 

[Foxholer]

What if the ball will not remain stationary against the flagstick?

Why are you asking me?

I'm simply stating what Dec 17-4/1 states!

The player incurs a penalty stroke under Rule 20-1 for lifting his ball without marking its position. The player must replace the ball against the flagstick and may then apply Rule 17-4.

There is no further/related expansion of what to do if that cannot be done.

You are probably in a better position to 'pursue' further guidance.

I'd suspect that if it is truly impossible to replicate the 'lie', then on the lip would be the logical place, so (at least) another shot involved.

 

[duncan mackie]

Why are you asking me?

I'm simply stating what Dec 17-4/1 states!

The player incurs a penalty stroke under Rule 20-1 for lifting his ball without marking its position. The player must replace the ball against the flagstick and may then apply Rule 17-4.

There is no further/related expansion of what to do if that cannot be done.

You are probably in a better position to 'pursue' further guidance.

I'd suspect that if it is truly impossible to replicate the 'lie', then on the lip would be the logical place, so (at least) another shot involved.

:whoo:

I suspect that 17-4/1 contemplates that the player will find a way to get it to remain in place there!

If he really can't then 20-3 d covers the situation, and after exploring most areas within the hole (on the basis that they are the nearest places first) it would end up on the lip and cost an additional shot to hole.

 

[gryffindor]

But the player hasn't lifted the ball without marking the position - the flagstick is effectively the marker?

 

[Foxholer]

:whoo:

I suspect that 17-4/1 contemplates that the player will find a way to get it to remain in place there!

If he really can't then 20-3 d covers the situation, and after exploring most areas within the hole (on the basis that they are the nearest places first) it would end up on the lip and cost an additional shot to hole.

That was my logic too!

@gryfinder The 1 shot penalty is as prescribed in 17-4/1. Player hasn't Marked the ball, even though he may know where it needs to go. Same would apply if ball was beside an identifiable mark on the green - he'd still have to mark it.

 

[rulefan]

:whoo:

I suspect that 17-4/1 contemplates that the player will find a way to get it to remain in place there!

If he really can't then 20-3 d covers the situation, and after exploring most areas within the hole (on the basis that they are the nearest places first) it would end up on the lip and cost an additional shot to hole.

I have just realised that my quote from 20-3d in post #3 has gone walkabout.

If a ball when placed fails to come to rest on the spot on which it was placed, there is no penalty and the ball must be replaced. If it still fails to come to rest on that spot:
(i) except in a hazard, it must be placed at the nearest spot where it can be placed at rest that is not nearer the hole and not in a hazard.

 

[MashieNiblick]

This has got me thinking, given the possible difficulty of replacing the ball against the flagstick.

Decision 17-4/3 - Ball Resting Against Flagstick Moves Away from Hole When Flagstick Removed by Opponent or Fellow-Competitor, says

Q. A player's ball is resting against the flagstick. Without the player's authority, his opponent or a fellow-competitor removes the flagstick and the ball moves away from the hole. What is the ruling?

A. In match play, the opponent incurs a penalty stroke and the ball must be replaced against the flagstick (Rule 18-3b).
In stroke play, the ball must be replaced against the flagstick without penalty to anyone (Rule 18-4).
In either form of play, the player may then move or remove the flagstick as prescribed in Rule 17-4.

Supposing in a stroke play comp my f/c removes the flag without my authority and the ball moves away from the hole, but I am unable to replace it against the flag. My understading of the posts above is that I then have to replace the ball on the lip, effectivly costing me an extra shot as a result of my f/c's unauthorised action and through no fault of my own.

Hardly seems fair. Any thoughts?

 

[Colin L]

I suspect that 17-4/1 contemplates that the player will find a way to get it to remain in place there!

Just a thought: would you be happy if the player held the flagstick while replacing the ball to make sure it stayed in place? Since the ball had stuck between flagstick and the side of the hole in the first place, does it seem reasonable to allow the flag to be held in such a position that the situation could be recreated?

 

[backwoodsman]

I know it doesn't answer either my original query, nor some later comments, but is not the logic of 17/4 based on a ball that is "sort of but not really" in the hole - such that if the flag is moved, there's a reasonably even chance the ball would go either way - in or out and you take your luck either way. II Mashie's scenario above is like that then the additional shot might not be that unfair. But if like my OP, ie the ball was so far into the hole that its a puzzle as to how it didn't drop, then it does seem unfair that 20-3 d would impose a penalty

 

[Foxholer]

Srokeplay Golf Rules/Decisions aren't necessarily 'fair' to the affected player in every situation. They are based on being 'fair' to the entire field - including the affected player.

In this case, I think the ruling is fair. In either case, the moving of the Flagstick could have caused the ball to pop out of the hole rather than fall. I've seen folk simply yank it up in these circumstances! There are other times where affected player can actually get an 'advantage' as well, so a bit of reasonable 'swings and roundabouts' is Ok by me.

Matchplay Rules tend to be different.

 

[MashieNiblick]

Just wondered if there is any stipulation or guidance about the diameter of the flagstick being such as to allow room for a ball to drop into the hole. It's not included in the definition of flagstick.