Movement of Ball by Outside Influence

[Billabong_Bob]

PP's ball teetering on the very lip of greenside bunker and at rest. Player hits ball out of bunker and in the process sand from shot dislodges the vulnerable ball which falls into the bunker. What is the ruling please?

 

[Bdill93]

Savage if they have to play it as it lies.....

 

[Colin L]

Stroke play:
Player whose ball was moved, replaces it, cleaning it if wished. No penalty. [Rule 9.6]
No penalty to player who caused the ball to move.

Match play:
Player whose ball was moved, replaces it, cleaning it if wished. No penalty. [Rule 9.5a]
Opponent who caused ball to move, one stroke penalty [Rule 9.5b]

 

[Swango1980]

Stroke play:
Player whose ball was moved, replaces it, cleaning it if wished. No penalty. [Rule 9.6]
No penalty to player who caused the ball to move.

Match play:
Player whose ball was moved, replaces it, cleaning it if wished. No penalty. [Rule 9.5a]
Opponent who caused ball to move, one stroke penalty [Rule 9.5b]

Are your sure? 9.5b says: "There is no penalty when the opponent accidentally causes the ball to move while taking any of the actions covered by Exceptions 2, 3 or 4 in Rule 9.4b. "

And, Exception 4 in 9.4b says:

"Accidental Movement Anywhere Except on Putting Green While Applying Rule: There is no penalty when the player accidentally causes the ball to move anywhere except on the putting green"

 

[Steven Rules]

Are your sure? 9.5b says: "There is no penalty when the opponent accidentally causes the ball to move while taking any of the actions covered by Exceptions 2, 3 or 4 in Rule 9.4b. "

And, Exception 4 in 9.4b says:

"Accidental Movement Anywhere Except on Putting Green While Applying Rule: There is no penalty when the player accidentally causes the ball to move anywhere except on the putting green"

Re Exception 4 in 9.4b. Accidental Movement Anywhere Except on Putting Green While Applying Rule. I suggest not applicable here. What rule do you think the opponent was applying?

 

[Imurg]

Stroke play:
Player whose ball was moved, replaces it, cleaning it if wished. No penalty. [Rule 9.6]
No penalty to player who caused the ball to move.

Match play:
Player whose ball was moved, replaces it, cleaning it if wished. No penalty. [Rule 9.5a]
Opponent who caused ball to move, one stroke penalty [Rule 9.5b]

Absolutely not disputing but why the penalty in Matchplay but not in Strokeplay?
Seems a bit harsh to penalise when a divot or sand etc has moved the opponent's ball..you can't control them after you've played your shot.
Why the inconsistencies?

 

[salfordlad]

Stroke play:
Player whose ball was moved, replaces it, cleaning it if wished. No penalty. [Rule 9.6]
No penalty to player who caused the ball to move.

Match play:
Player whose ball was moved, replaces it, cleaning it if wished. No penalty. [Rule 9.5a]
Opponent who caused ball to move, one stroke penalty [Rule 9.5b]

IMO, no penalty to the opponent. I believe this is a 9.6 issue, not a 9.5b issue. A ball in motion is an outside influence - per the final bullet point in the definition of outside influence: "Any natural or artificial object or anything else (including another ball in motion),...

 

[Swango1980]

Re Exception 4 in 9.4b. Accidental Movement Anywhere Except on Putting Green While Applying Rule. I suggest not applicable here. What rule do you think the opponent was applying?

True, I missed the "while applying a rule" bit at the end. However, I still struggled to find why the opponent would be penalised for accidentally moving the ball, after trying to find reference to it in the rule quoted. It is probably why I missed the "while applying a rule" bit, as I was so focused on anything related to accidental movement of a ball. It seems extremely harsh, and if it was true then would there be a logical reason to penalise the opponent one shot?

 

[rulie]

IMO, no penalty to the opponent. I believe this is a 9.6 issue, not a 9.5b issue. A ball in motion is an outside influence - per the final bullet point in the definition of outside influence: "Any natural or artificial object or anything else (including another ball in motion),...

Agree that this is purely a Rule 9.6 issue - ball moved by outside influence. No penalty to either player and replace the ball at its original spot.

 

[Colin L]

It wasn't the ball in motion that dislodged the other player's ball; it was the sand thrown up by the player's club.
Player hits ball out of bunker and in the process sand from shot dislodges the vulnerable ball which falls into the bunker.

My reasoning for a penalty is that you are penalised if you move your ball with a divot thrown up by a practice swing as Justin Rose might well remember with some embarrassment. In that situation the player is obviously considered "culpable" for moving his ball. Moving your opponent's ball in the way described by the OP seems the same sort of action to me.

 

[rulie]

It wasn't the ball in motion that dislodged the other player's ball; it was the sand thrown up by the player's club.
Player hits ball out of bunker and in the process sand from shot dislodges the vulnerable ball which falls into the bunker.

My reasoning for a penalty is that you are penalised if you move your ball with a divot thrown up by a practice swing as Justin Rose might well remember with some embarrassment. In that situation the player is obviously considered "culpable" for moving his ball. Moving your opponent's ball in the way described by the OP seems the same sort of action to me.

Yes, you are penalized for moving your own ball as Rose was. But, imo, the same does not apply to an opponent's ball unless the action was deliberate,

 

[Billabong_Bob]

It just goes to show that the rules aren't quite as easy to interpret as the people who write them think! We went for replace without penalty.

 

[Steven Rules]

It wasn't the ball in motion that dislodged the other player's ball; it was the sand thrown up by the player's club.
Player hits ball out of bunker and in the process sand from shot dislodges the vulnerable ball which falls into the bunker.

My reasoning for a penalty is that you are penalised if you move your ball with a divot thrown up by a practice swing as Justin Rose might well remember with some embarrassment. In that situation the player is obviously considered "culpable" for moving his ball. Moving your opponent's ball in the way described by the OP seems the same sort of action to me.

This is my reasoning also.

The player is deemed to have caused the player’s own ball to have moved if the player causes it to move through, say, vibration or thowing up loose impediments or other natural objects.

In match play, there is nothing in 9.5 suggesting that the opponent is exempt from liability for moving the player’s ball throgh similar actions of the opponent.

One stroke penalty for the opponent. Replace the player’s ball

Very harsh on the opponent, but that is how I (and Colin) interpret this rule.

 

[Swango1980]

This is my reasoning also.

The player is deemed to have caused the player’s own ball to have moved if the player causes it to move through, say, vibration or thowing up loose impediments or other natural objects.

In match play, there is nothing in 9.5 suggesting that the opponent is exempt from liability for moving the player’s ball throgh similar actions of the opponent.

One stroke penalty for the opponent. Replace the player’s ball

Very harsh on the opponent, but that is how I (and Colin) interpret this rule.

Sounds like a poorly written rule, if people who are clearly knowledgeable on rules disagree with the interpretation.

In practice, I might have a difficult time telling my opponent they get a penalty.

 

[Steven Rules]

Yes, you are penalized for moving your own ball as Rose was. But, imo, the same does not apply to an opponent's ball unless the action was deliberate,

Rule 9.5 does not require the opponent's movement of the player's ball to be deliberate in order for the penalty to apply.

The first paragraphs of 9.4 and 9.4b are nearly identical to the first paragraphs of 9.5 and 9.5b respectively. I can't see any Exceptions that are applicable to this situation.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

As far as I see it - and I look at the scenario described and then take what happened to an extreme - the difference in 'no penalty/penalty' between strokeplay/matchplay in this context is that in matchplay one player could deliberately create situations or carry out actions outside of normal or accepted matchplay that he designs to upset or unsettle his opponent - things that are nothing at all to do with the player's playing of his own ball. In strokeplay it is very much less likely that one player would deliberately do such things to unsettle a fellow competitor.

 

[Steven Rules]

Sounds like a poorly written rule, if people who are clearly knowledgeable on rules disagree with the interpretation.

In practice, I might have a difficult time telling my opponent they get a penalty.

Happily for you, in match play you may ignore a breach of the rules by your opponent. Rule 3.2d(4). No need to 'create a scene' if you don't want to.

 

[Colin L]

Yes, you are penalized for moving your own ball as Rose was. But, imo, the same does not apply to an opponent's ball unless the action was deliberate,

I don't see 9.5b limiting causing your opponent's ball to move to a deliberate action. The words just don't sustain that:

If the opponent lifts or deliberately touches the player’s ball at rest or causes it to move, the opponent gets one penalty stroke.

That clearly says that your opponent gets a penalty stroke if one of three things occurs:

he lifts your ball;
he deliberately touches your ball;
he causes it to move.

In the OP's situation, the player has caused his opponent's ball to move. There is no let-out through the Exceptions.

 

[nickjdavis]

I don't see 9.5b limiting causing your opponent's ball to move to a deliberate action. The words just don't sustain that:

If the opponent lifts or deliberately touches the player’s ball at rest or causes it to move, the opponent gets one penalty stroke.

That clearly says that your opponent gets a penalty stroke if one of three things occurs:

he lifts your ball;
he deliberately touches your ball;
he causes it to move.

In the OP's situation, the player has caused his opponent's ball to move. There is no let-out through the Exceptions.

So I take it that it would be reasonable then for the player who was playing from the bunker, to ask his opponent to mark his ball, so that any sand thrown up from the bunker shot would not be able to cause the ball to move?

 

[rulefan]

So I take it that it would be reasonable then for the player who was playing from the bunker, to ask his opponent to mark his ball, so that any sand thrown up from the bunker shot would not be able to cause the ball to move?

Exactly