BTatHome
Tour Winner
Always a good reason for hitting a club on the range and buying the exact club you hit, rather than one that will be shipped later, or picked up from the rack 
Manufacturers tolerance levels....
- Thread starter Airlie_Andy
- Start date
Piece
Tour Winner
For tolerance, I can't comment as I don't know the manufacturing process.
For actual loft, the guys at Precision Golf say that almost ALL manufacturers overstate their static loft by 1 to 2 degs. To prove his point, he took my Ping i15 9.5 deg and measured it... it was just over 11 deg real static loft. They said the only manufacturer that is consistent with label loft v real static loft is Bridgestone. It seems its a bit of a macho thing to have low stated loft than have a realistic loft!
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Alex1975
Guest
Piece
Tour Winner
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Alex1975
Guest
Wildrover
Tour Rookie
It's really quite simple and we are to blame.
We go for a fitting and if we are told we need an 11 deg driver then you don't sell many drivers.
Go for a fitting where you are told we need a 9.5 deg driver, our ego is pandered to and a sale is made.
At the end of the day the number on the sole of the club is irrelevant, it is the loft on the face that counts. The tolerance to the actual required loft on a driver (not the No on the bottom) is actually quite accurate. So if you are fitted for a 9.5 deg driver you can be assured that the driver you receive will be very close in loft to the one you used in the fitting.
We go for a fitting and if we are told we need an 11 deg driver then you don't sell many drivers.
Go for a fitting where you are told we need a 9.5 deg driver, our ego is pandered to and a sale is made.
At the end of the day the number on the sole of the club is irrelevant, it is the loft on the face that counts. The tolerance to the actual required loft on a driver (not the No on the bottom) is actually quite accurate. So if you are fitted for a 9.5 deg driver you can be assured that the driver you receive will be very close in loft to the one you used in the fitting.
USER1999
Grand Slam Winner
Titleist claim that they do not mis-label lofts on any club, and that their drivers are made to tight tolerances which makes the loft near exact.
They do state that when they loft and lie their irons they are with 0.5 of a degree to specification, which in my view should be a bit better. That said, the average golfer probably wouldn't notice 1/2 degree in loft or lie. If you are that good, your clubs are going to need regular adjusting anyway.
They do state that when they loft and lie their irons they are with 0.5 of a degree to specification, which in my view should be a bit better. That said, the average golfer probably wouldn't notice 1/2 degree in loft or lie. If you are that good, your clubs are going to need regular adjusting anyway.
Airlie_Andy
Challenge Tour Pro
Here is the link
http://m.youtube.com/index?desktop_uri=/&gl=US#/watch?v=0EHQJQPYFL4
It might need fixing by someone more computer literate than me. Alternatively try typing in "driver fitting insights" into YouTube. It should be the first video and it's by peak performance.
http://m.youtube.com/index?desktop_uri=/&gl=US#/watch?v=0EHQJQPYFL4
It might need fixing by someone more computer literate than me. Alternatively try typing in "driver fitting insights" into YouTube. It should be the first video and it's by peak performance.
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Piece
Tour Winner
Hmmm. I'm about to find out in the next hour when I pick up my 9.5 stated club from Precision! Be interesting to see what the reality is v stated...
jammag
Challenge Tour Pro
Tolerance levels exist in a lot of things so to have them in golf it wouldnt surprise me at all. For example on every bit of food packaging you have the % of fats, sugars etc, up until 18 months ago they were allowed to be up to 20% different to allow for variants how ever the government did clamp down on this and now they have to be more accurate. I am into my darts and most darts will have +-0.5 grams and you have to pay top end prices to try and get all the barrels the exact same weight.
If it was to happen in golf it would not surprise me, if clubs are hand made then you have to expect differences, if they are manufactured then you can also expect slight differences in different shafts and heads. The only people this really affects is those that believe in getting custom fitted everything. If you try a club off the shelf and try it you cant really complain as you have bought it on what you have produced. Many people are happy to believe what is on the club, which is understandable and we wouldnt check the loft.
To me this is no different than the the manufactures that have turned the 8 iron into what used to be a 7iron degree. Which also needs sorting out.
If it was to happen in golf it would not surprise me, if clubs are hand made then you have to expect differences, if they are manufactured then you can also expect slight differences in different shafts and heads. The only people this really affects is those that believe in getting custom fitted everything. If you try a club off the shelf and try it you cant really complain as you have bought it on what you have produced. Many people are happy to believe what is on the club, which is understandable and we wouldnt check the loft.
To me this is no different than the the manufactures that have turned the 8 iron into what used to be a 7iron degree. Which also needs sorting out.
sona
Assistant Pro
As a retired manufacturing engineer I agree that I cannot imagine that top name companies would accept such tolerances in their heads, 0.5 deg should be achievable. I have no experience with graphite shafts and would think tried before buying.
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Alex1975
Guest
Anything I have had custom fitted in the past has arrived to the fitter and the fitter has always asked me to try it before taking it away... I guess we know why now.
*exception was a hybrid from AG
*exception was a hybrid from AG
Dave B
Q-School Graduate
The majority of todays top of the range golf club heads are manufactured using investment casting which depending on the components and materials can be accurate up to +/-0.005â€
The process itself is very accurate therefore I doubt very much that there would be any discrepancies in loft. You also have to bear in mind that if the loft stated on your club was not true the company would be in breach of trading standards.
Modern carbon technology is also very accurate however it is possible that batches of carbon cloth can differ in quality and this combined with the resins used could affect stiffness and compression of the shaft but in general the difference would be minimal.
The process itself is very accurate therefore I doubt very much that there would be any discrepancies in loft. You also have to bear in mind that if the loft stated on your club was not true the company would be in breach of trading standards.
Modern carbon technology is also very accurate however it is possible that batches of carbon cloth can differ in quality and this combined with the resins used could affect stiffness and compression of the shaft but in general the difference would be minimal.
jammag
Challenge Tour Pro
Thing is surely with anything like this with metal for example, is it possible that lofts will gradually change over time anyway with constant impact they could gradually open up more? I remember someone posted a video about the titleist tour van and I am sure in the back of that they had a machine to check that lofts were correct and redadjust them?
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Alex1975
Guest
Airlie_Andy
Challenge Tour Pro
Ethan
Money List Winner
Good luck with that case in the small claims court. What degree (no pun intended) of loft discrepancy do you think they would find unacceptable?
Loft discrepancies have been well known for years and have been identified by specialist fitters and tour vans. You can pick up unmodified heads from tour vans which have both the official and the true loft on them. They are rarely the same.
The fact is that it is not worth the additional expense to QC all heads. If anyone complained, the manufacturer will exchange the head. Meantime, there are lots of Ping players who boast that they can get a 9 degree driver up in the air, and their ego is probably glad nobody checks and finds it is an 11 degree driver.
Oh, and many of those 'stiff' shafts aren't. Stiff, that is.
big_russ
Challenge Tour Pro
Couple of videos that I have seen in the past which show what is accepted by the manufacturers.
http://www.youtube.com/user/PeakPerformanceGolf?ob=0&feature=results_main#p/u/53/KSiQp6eVeIQ
http://www.youtube.com/user/PeakPerformanceGolf?ob=0&feature=results_main#p/u/0/TzlmOlvobvI
http://www.youtube.com/user/PeakPerformanceGolf?ob=0&feature=results_main#p/u/53/KSiQp6eVeIQ
http://www.youtube.com/user/PeakPerformanceGolf?ob=0&feature=results_main#p/u/0/TzlmOlvobvI
Dave B
Q-School Graduate
Ethan investment casting is an accurate process which is why it is chosen for many metal forming industries as the prefered method of manufacture. In addition in industry it is not policy to individually inspect every item as quality is controlled by batch inspection which given todays modern production technology is sufficient to identify any quality issues.
Talking specifically on woods including drivers if the face is out of tolerence eveything else would also be out of tolerence which would make the combining of components a nightmare particularly when you have compression chambers and composites added to the equation.
From a manufacturing view point it's far more cost effective to throw out any non conforming or defective parts than to try and accomodate fit in mass manufacturing.
I'm not an expert in the golf industry but I do have a very good engineering background in aerospace manufacturing engineering and without getting involved in a lengthy debate I find it hard to believe that anybody in industry would accept the wide tollerences stated in some of the posts on this topic.
Putting it simply it is the companies best interests to ensure that manufacturing tollerences are adhered to on every occasion and I would be very surprised if the manufacturing drawings for any mass manufactured club allow a tollerence of more than 0.25 degrees on cast investment club.
Now before people start jumping on the band wagon, my first post was to highlight the manufacturing aspect however the fact that manufacturers may state an untrue loft on their clubs is a totally different subject.
If a manufacturer states that a club has a 10 degree loft and prints, stamps or markets that club as 10 degrees when it is in fact 11 degrees they are in breach of trading standards. Whether somebody would take them to task on this is another subject however as you have stated it is very likely they would be offered a replacement head or club to make them go away.
Talking specifically on woods including drivers if the face is out of tolerence eveything else would also be out of tolerence which would make the combining of components a nightmare particularly when you have compression chambers and composites added to the equation.
From a manufacturing view point it's far more cost effective to throw out any non conforming or defective parts than to try and accomodate fit in mass manufacturing.
I'm not an expert in the golf industry but I do have a very good engineering background in aerospace manufacturing engineering and without getting involved in a lengthy debate I find it hard to believe that anybody in industry would accept the wide tollerences stated in some of the posts on this topic.
Putting it simply it is the companies best interests to ensure that manufacturing tollerences are adhered to on every occasion and I would be very surprised if the manufacturing drawings for any mass manufactured club allow a tollerence of more than 0.25 degrees on cast investment club.
Now before people start jumping on the band wagon, my first post was to highlight the manufacturing aspect however the fact that manufacturers may state an untrue loft on their clubs is a totally different subject.
If a manufacturer states that a club has a 10 degree loft and prints, stamps or markets that club as 10 degrees when it is in fact 11 degrees they are in breach of trading standards. Whether somebody would take them to task on this is another subject however as you have stated it is very likely they would be offered a replacement head or club to make them go away.
wull
Tour Rookie
the thing is where a lot of money is concerned they should get their butts in gear and make them to the loft they should be and stop ersing about.....money grabbing !!!!they take our money so the very least they can do is build the club to the standard we would accept.
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