Manchester Terrorist Attack!

[Deleted member 15344]

Change the law!

It seems we're quite happy to keep the status quo and yet home grown terrorists are definitely on the rise, and as such something needs to be changed to stop the root problem, otherwise it's just window dressing.

When you have a problem of this or any magnitude you identify the key factor, that currently is the 'he was born here' so he's British born and we can't go anything!

Well we need to!

If you have a family like his who came from Libya they would only have temporary passports and citizenship. It is these parents that are also the problem as the 'British born' child is radicalised by them, and they, along with cells from their home country which he had visited and over here exploit this Trojan horse to carry out the heinous act like we have just witnessed.

I don't care how unfair it sounds, we have to protect our way of life, that now means radical change in our laws do that any family member that is subject to a temporary passport and carries out an act of terrorism, the whole lot go back to the parents country of origin from whence they came.

It wouldn't surprise me if this 'British born' terrorist had dual nationality, I don't understand this personally, if you want to be a British citizen then you should wave any previous nationality orcang bg association and hold just 1 passport.

The whole passport and right to citizenship needs addressing as I don't accept this 'he was born here there's nothing we can do' scenario, if that is the case now, then change it, we must kill the core issue that is being exploited.

What happens if Mum and Dad were also born here ? Where exactly are you sending these people back to when you take away their passport ?

What about a non Muslim terrorist with a British passport ? Or would it just be Muslim terrorists from certain countries who get placed under temporary citizenship all because of the country they are born in ?

How many British citizens have been killed by Irish Terrorists over the decades ? Was the same radical ideas of giving the Irish Temporary passports banded around because some of their countrymen were terrorists ?

 

[Fish]

What happens if Mum and Dad were also born here ? Where exactly are you sending these people back to when you take away their passport ?

What about a non Muslim terrorist with a British passport ? Or would it just be Muslim terrorists from certain countries who get placed under temporary citizenship all because of the country they are born in ?

How many British citizens have been killed by Irish Terrorists over the decades ? Was the same radical ideas of giving the Irish Temporary passports banded around because some of their countrymen were terrorists ?

But this individual's parents were from Libya, so this was a perfect scenario, and if that had stopped this heinous act, then it was worth all the changing of law and upsetting of a few innocents.

Personally you're just coming across as argumentative with non related scenarios, I appreciate 1 glove don't fit all but just keeping to the status quo whilst this issue rises and gets worse, which it is and will until we plug it, doesn't solve squatt.

Maybe you need something closer to home to happen to you for you to change your liberal opinion? We need radical change for this current growing threat, it won't be pretty and it won't be popular, but what we have now with these british born trojan horses isn't working and is being exploited, and that has nothing to do with resources or money or dare I say, Brexit.

The issue is we have many british born suicide bombers amongst us and we need to create a fear factor to not only them, although that won't work on it's own, but to all their immediate family over here, all or nothing, keep them all in check and break the ranks and maybe some communities will then open up a bit.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

But this individual's parents were from Libya, so this was a perfect scenario, and if that had stopped this heinous act, then it was worth all the changing of law and upsetting of a few innocents.

Personally you're just coming across as argumentative with non related scenarios, I appreciate 1 glove don't fit all but just keeping to the status quo whilst this issue rises and gets worse, which it is and will until we plug it, doesn't solve squatt.

Maybe you need something closer to home to happen to you for you to change your liberal opinion? We need radical change for this current growing threat, it won't be pretty and it won't be popular, but what we have now with these british born trojan horses isn't working and is being exploited, and that has nothing to do with resources or money or dare I say, Brexit.

The issue is we have many british born suicide bombers amongst us and we need to create a fear factor to not only them, although that won't work on it's own, but to all their immediate family over here, all or nothing, keep them all in check and break the ranks and maybe some communities will then open up a bit.

Things maybe do need to change but sorry it's certainly not the idea you are coming up which is beyond radical and is basically judging people based on the country of where their parents come from - that's bordering on racism. Im not arguing I'm trying to show you the faults in such a radical idea that you are trying to fit into this one scenario- I have highlighted other issues that have happened and that can happen . Terrorists don't just come from Libya or Syria or indeed just Muslim countries. The country has been at the mercy of terrorists for decades now - we lived in fear of the IRA for decades. Your idea wouldn't have stopped this bomber just as it won't stop any future bombings

Just because someone's parents were from Libya doesn't mean they should automatically have a star above their name as possible terrorists.

If someone wants to become a fundamentalist then it won't matter to them where their parents are from - and putting fear factor into them ? They don't care , they are more than likely going to die as what they see for a cause what happens after they wouldn't care about

I have no idea what Brexit has to do with anything

To help UK there are a few things we can do -

1. Stay out of politics in the Middle East - ISIS etc was created out of the Iraq War which we were smack in the middle off. We have got involved in trying to change regimes in these Middle East countries

2. Give our security forces the full resources both in footfall and budget terms to ensure they can cover and investigate as much as fully possible - they already do a fantastic job with limited resources and have foiled multiple terror threats over the years , increase those resources and you will increase the productivity

 

[SocketRocket]

Exactly - he is a British citizen by right , no different to anyone else born in this country.
If he is seen to break our laws he is then convicted and punished under those laws.

You are being very argumentative for the sake of it. Rather than decrying anything said against these people why not come up with a solution yourself. Or are you content with the way things are? Saying "If he is seen to break our laws he is then convicted and punished under those laws" is accepting that nothing can be done and we should just have to wait for the next bomb or truck mowing people down as it's wrong to change the law.

 

[Val]

I believe we need to arm the police and get them back on the beat, also have an armed response unit in every town or county. I get it these bombers don't fear death but if the sheer threat that they'll be taken down before they get to commit their crime makes them think twice about it hen it's a price worth paying.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

You are being very argumentative for the sake of it. Rather than decrying anything said against these people why not come up with a solution yourself. Or are you content with the way things are? Saying "If he is seen to break our laws he is then convicted and punished under those laws" is accepting that nothing can be done and we should just have to wait for the next bomb or truck mowing people down as it's wrong to change the law.

I would suggest before throwing accusations at me you should look at a few posts where i have posted what we as the UK can do to find a way to reduce the affect of terrorists to the country

To change the law it needs to be fullproof and it can be seen to make a dramatic change - nothing that has been said would do that , nothing that has been said would have stopped this guy in his desire to cause havoc. Terrorists have been alive in the U.K. For decades and decades - if someone is that determined to create havoc it will be nearly impossible to stop them - that's not saying that nothing can be done to stop them , that's facing reality that it's a impossible task - yet our security services have done amazing job by fooling so many. As this talk of passports etc I'm sorry but it won't make a jot of difference - it wouldn't stop people coming to the UK and it won't stop people creating terror -

 

[PhilTheFragger]

I believe we need to arm the police and get them back on the beat, also have an armed response unit in every town or county. I get it these bombers don't fear death but if the sheer threat that they'll be taken down before they get to commit their crime makes them think twice about it hen it's a price worth paying.

But they don't walk around with Tee shirts saying "I'm a Terrorist"

Wearing normal clothes, with a rucksack , no distinguishing features, how do you tell,

you cant, so the armed response unit as above is pretty useless in this scenario.

We have a balance in this country between Personal Freedoms and the rules of Law, if you increase the rules of law--IE Stop & Search-, then there is a reduction in our freedoms,
If there is a reduction in our freedoms then the Terrorists are winning

There is no simple answer, but I agree with Fish that everyone on a watch list needs to be interviewed and tagged and told they will be monitored and basically left in no doubt that if they don't like it here, they are free to leave, but if they are suspected of trying anything then its "Gitmo" or whatever our version of Gitmo is.

 

[SocketRocket]

I would suggest before throwing accusations at me you should look at a few posts where i have posted what we as the UK can do to find a way to reduce the affect of terrorists to the country

To change the law it needs to be fullproof and it can be seen to make a dramatic change - nothing that has been said would do that , nothing that has been said would have stopped this guy in his desire to cause havoc. Terrorists have been alive in the U.K. For decades and decades - if someone is that determined to create havoc it will be nearly impossible to stop them - that's not saying that nothing can be done to stop them , that's facing reality that it's a impossible task - yet our security services have done amazing job by fooling so many. As this talk of passports etc I'm sorry but it won't make a jot of difference - it wouldn't stop people coming to the UK and it won't stop people creating terror -

Multiculturalism is the policy that has created the segregation in our society that encourages people to feel they are different and not a part of the British society that has worked so well for so long. It needs binning as a complete failure and we need to work harder at removing the need for people to be defined by their religion; Muslim Taxi Drivers; Muslim Butchers etc, we should not need to know or care what religion someone has, we should not need to encourage people to live in communities where many dont even speak English as if it's enriching us somehow. Dump Multiculturalism as a complete failure and start encouraging people to be integrated as British Citizens first and foremost. Anyone not committed to this should not be allowed the right to permanent residence.

 

[Val]

But they don't walk around with Tee shirts saying "I'm a Terrorist"

Wearing normal clothes, with a rucksack , no distinguishing features, how do you tell,

you cant, so the armed response unit as above is pretty useless in this scenario.

We have a balance in this country between Personal Freedoms and the rules of Law, if you increase the rules of law--IE Stop & Search-, then there is a reduction in our freedoms,
If there is a reduction in our freedoms then the Terrorists are winning

There is no simple answer, but I agree with Fish that everyone on a watch list needs to be interviewed and tagged and told they will be monitored and basically left in no doubt that if they don't like it here, they are free to leave, but if they are suspected of trying anything then its "Gitmo" or whatever our version of Gitmo is.

You can't tell I agree but if an armed cop makes them think twice then job done. Let's be honest, would that cretin have walked into the Manchester arena with a bag of explosives if there was even a slight chance he may have had to walk past or even speak to an armed cop?

 

[Val]

Multiculturalism is the policy that has created the segregation in our society that encourages people to feel they are different and not a part of the British society that has worked so well for so long. It needs binning as a complete failure and we need to work harder at removing the need for people to be defined by their religion; Muslim Taxi Drivers; Muslim Butchers etc, we should not need to know or care what religion someone has, we should not need to encourage people to live in communities where many dont even speak English as if it's enriching us somehow. Dump Multiculturalism as a complete failure and start encouraging people to be integrated as British Citizens first and foremost. Anyone not committed to this should not be allowed the right to permanent residence.

I agree, the surprising thing is the area of Manchester that this cretin was from in Manchester is very much multicultural and inclusive, it's not what you see in areas of Oldham, Rochdale and parts of West Yorkshire and Lancashire which can be intimidating to drive through never mind walk through

 

[Deleted member 15344]

You can't tell I agree but if an armed cop makes them think twice then job done. Let's be honest, would that cretin have walked into the Manchester arena with a bag of explosives if there was even a slight chance he may have had to walk past or even speak to an armed cop?

Unfortunately I think he would have Val - when he has got to the stage of carry a suicide vest on him then I think he has got past the second guessing stage - if he gets stopped he then just explodes it and kills a cop plus a few others - not his intended target but it would still cause chaos and havoc.

There is no perfect answer to stop these people beyond removing our nose from up the Americas backside and leave areas like Syria etc. Over the last decade or so Brits and US plus the other Allies have been in their country trying to get the country to work the way we want it to - multiple US Presidents wanted to cleanse the counties of their dictators and replace them with democracy but it's blown back in their faces and now we all face the consequences and fear that has created.

 

[Val]

It's all hypothetical Phil as we'll never know. It's a bit like having a nuclear deterrent, who knows who's radar we would be on if we didn't have one.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Multiculturalism is the policy that has created the segregation in our society that encourages people to feel they are different and not a part of the British society that has worked so well for so long. It needs binning as a complete failure and we need to work harder at removing the need for people to be defined by their religion; Muslim Taxi Drivers; Muslim Butchers etc, we should not need to know or care what religion someone has, we should not need to encourage people to live in communities where many dont even speak English as if it's enriching us somehow. Dump Multiculturalism as a complete failure and start encouraging people to be integrated as British Citizens first and foremost. Anyone not committed to this should not be allowed the right to permanent residence.

It's not a new thing - Irish , West Indian , Indian , Pakistani - they have been creating areas in this country for decades now and every single normally gets identified by origins - British Indian , British West Indian etc etc - same sigh Muslims - only have to see the responses from the British Muslim society - they denounce the actions of the minority.

British has been multicultural for centuries- being British isnt anything beyond being born in the U.K. - being British is full of different strains from all over the world - you can't suddenly undo decades of development. People can speak whatever language they wish , they can practise whatever religion they wish , they can live their life anyway they wish - provided its within the laws of our country.

 

[Old Skier]

Religion has to be at the heart of it. It may be an extreme form of it but all the same it's in the name of religion. We seem to be frightened to admit and face up to it as we may be called racist. These perpetrators carry out their crimes in the name of Islam and are Muslims, if you look at the Muslim world there are wars and religious hatred all over, that extends now to countries where they have moved to. I am not suggesting all muslims are the problem but I cant ignore the fact that something in their communities create this hatred for others and even themselves, we cannot sit back and ignore it in the name of Political Correctness.

Some people have a very short attention span. Christian's in the U.K. have been blowing up members of the public including women and children since I can remember but I don't see people putting religious tags on these terrorists.

 

[IanM]

- provided its within the laws of our country....

Absolutely. Now how do we do deal with this element? At the moment no action is being taken in case it's labelled racist or we excuse it by saying others have done it for years.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Absolutely. Now how do we do deal with this element? At the moment no action is being taken in case it's labelled racist or we excuse it by saying others have done it for years.

Plenty of action is been taken - our security forces are working non stop to foil terror attacks and multiple people have been arrested under terrorism act

 

[patricks148]

Unfortunately I think he would have Val - when he has got to the stage of carry a suicide vest on him then I think he has got past the second guessing stage - if he gets stopped he then just explodes it and kills a cop plus a few others - not his intended target but it would still cause chaos and havoc.

There is no perfect answer to stop these people beyond removing our nose from up the Americas backside and leave areas like Syria etc. Over the last decade or so Brits and US plus the other Allies have been in their country trying to get the country to work the way we want it to - multiple US Presidents wanted to cleanse the counties of their dictators and replace them with democracy but it's blown back in their faces and now we all face the consequences and fear that has created.

you have certainly changed your tune in the last couple of years. not so long ago you were spouting that we were saving these countries from dictators.

 

[IanM]

Horses and stable doors,..... e.g., I don't think we removed passports from returning fighters as it was contary to human rights act. Seems silly doesn't it

 

[Deleted member 16999]

If we were starting from scratch then Robin I agree there would be a lot of mileage in your point about passports, unfortunately that will never happen, we certainly need drastic action, but to me it starts with the funding and resourcing, including increase in manpower, of the security services, once that is done they should identify and advise on the scale of the problem and how we should tackle it, if they suggest radical changes to our laws then we should support them.

 

[HankMarvin]

you have certainly changed your tune in the last couple of years. not so long ago you were spouting that we were saving these countries from dictators.

good point