Manchester Terrorist Attack!

Papas1982 said:
I don't think its the right answer, but could the country not decide to ban the religion that these people follow. Many countries don't allow the practice of certain religions. With the latest events i wouldnt be surprised to see a swell of support if they banned the practice of islam.

Then it would maybe force people to either leave ( homegrown or not), or at least make it harder for people to find places to worship.
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Yes, because that will not inflame the situation, introduce further division into an country already doing its best to tear itself apart and act as a recruiting tool for potential fundamentalists will it.
 
Liverpoolphil said:
You appear desperate to ensure that religion of Islam and Muslims get blamed for it - it's like reading a Facebook post from one of those Templar Knight groups - under currents of clear racism despite the denials. There are millions upon millions of Muslims practising their religion in perfect peace and harmony.

Over the years Christianity has prob been at the heart of more deaths around the world than any other religion - going back to the crusades and even before that , all the way up to recent years.

It's not the fault of religion or beliefs it's always people interpretation of what is written down - no religion tells people to murder kids going to a concert but someone's interpretation of their religion will have them believe they are doing it for the right cause just as over the years christians believe they were doing it for the right cause when they murdered other ethnics or people with different beliefs
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I am not desperate to ensure anything, I am stating an opinion. Your comments regarding Facebook and Knights Templar are way off the mark and seem like you are desperate to make the connection.

Why are you mentioning the Crusades and things carried out in the middle ages as some kind of support for the atrocities carried out recently in the name of Islam and they were carried out in it's name. Christians in the whole have moved on since the Crusades, maybe you haven't noticed. Islam carries on in the same way as it did in those days and is responsible for most of the war and misery in the world.

Of course these matters are not the fault of the religion in it's written form but it is carried out in the name of that religion and no matter how much we would like to brush it under the carpet most of these problems in the world are carried out in the name of Islam, we don't have concerns for Christian, Jewish, Hindu or Buddhist suicide bombers do we? We really need to wake up about it and not run scared of offending the root cause of the problem, we have done that too often with very bad outcomes.
 
Fish said:
Excellent debates and dialog from individuals on Sky News clearly stating that anyone who is saying this isn't about religion or that religion isn't behind all the attacks we endure, is kidding themselves!

All the wordings and texts are real, it's simply that some individuals interpret them differently, some of these speakers also go on to say that again this idea that weak or vulnerable individuals are targeted, is a myth!

Yes, there is no doubt radicalisation goes on but individuals who are brought up with or around these more hostile and hatred variations of Islam towards the west or anyone that doesn't follow those jihadist ideals, volunteer and make themselves available to the terror groups who then simply use them as weapons for their own agenda.

What I don't ever quite get my head around is, we go on about being a multicultural country and we are happy to welcome people from anywhere in the world, but for me there has to be a stronger sense of integration.

Nobody should come over and set up in areas that only dominate those nationalities, religious beliefs or faiths, and then make no effort to mix with western society and only go on to complain and demonstrate against our western views and laws and more importantly, make no effort to speak our language.

Change has to start somewhere, more worrying is that there are areas in my city, and possibly others, that even I wouldn't venture out on my own too late into the night.

We have already had some situations where young women walking home from nightclubs have been attacked and beaten by young Muslim men who don't agree with the way they are dressed etc!

If these young men are like this now within our country and have probably been born here, then they are typical of the issues and problems we face and are possibly being taught this way by their parents, and if that is the case, then before these young men become fully fledged homegrown terrorists, if there parents have not been born here and still hold dual nationality in their birth country, then they need getting rid of back to where they allegedly fled from, because quite simply, we cannot have these homegrown terrorists thinking they can come and go as they please and believing there's nothing we can do before it's too late and they've blown some people up because they hold a British passport.

All British passports and citizenship for people coming to our country to set up new lives needs to be temporary, if any serious laws are broken or if we know of teachings which can or could lead to serious terrorist events, those passports are then withdrawn and they, parents, son's daughters and everyone associated to them whether born here or not, are flown immediately out back to their parents origin.

No detention centres, no red tape, it's a temporary passport and it can be withdrawn immediately.

This is no time to pander to the rights of any individuals, we make our laws, they are abided by or you run the risk of being deported back to your place of birth and any sons or daughters born here lose their rights as there citizenship is only based on their parents temporary passport/dual-nationality.

It's time to take the gloves off...
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This guy and many others were actually born and bred in this country - where do you deport him too ?
 
Liverpoolphil said:
This guy and many others were actually born and bred in this country - where do you deport him too ?
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Read what I said, his parents were Libyan, everyone now should only hold temporary passports and citizenship who come here.

He has been brought up and taught to hate the west, he has gone back & forth back to Libya, I don't care that he was born here, whilst he was born here with parents on a temporary passport all the family is deported back to Libya and his citizenship removed.

What we need to do is, rather than constantly finding reasons and excuses on why not to do this or that or the other, we need to radically change our laws because these homegrown terrorists think and know that they are untouchable until they carry out an atrocity, well that has to change, and if we know, through our intelligence that children born here from families who have fled places like Libya or Syria but travel back & forth to cells for training, then the whole family goes and all citizenships are removed, as they were all temporary citizenships anyway!
 
pauldj42 said:
These people are British and hold British Passports, just how exactly do we stop them coming in and out of our Country?
It's their Country as well and it's the wrong attitude of those that wish to harm us that we have to defeat, putting travel bans will do nothing.
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I'd like to think that the cretin who carried out Mondays attack wasn't let back in from his recent travels without an extensive grilling and a warning that he was being watched closely, especially given he was known to the intelligence service. Sadly, I don't think this happened.
 
pauldj42 said:
These people are British and hold British Passports, just how exactly do we stop them coming in and out of our Country?
It's their Country as well and it's the wrong attitude of those that wish to harm us that we have to defeat, putting travel bans will do nothing.
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Val said:
I'd like to think that the cretin who carried out Mondays attack wasn't let back in from his recent travels without an extensive grilling and a warning that he was being watched closely, especially given he was known to the intelligence service. Sadly, I don't think this happened.
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They need to have a different passport that flags up because there parents only hold a temporary passport if they come from high profile countries like Libya, Syria etc.

That way they are constantly on the radar, if any intel uncovers that he has been to training camps or any links to terror cells, the whole family is deported out the country, he is not allowed back and any citizenship as it was only temporary, is withdrawn.

I honestly can't see why that's difficult to implement, only those people who have something to hide will complain, those law abiding genuine people looking to live a peaceful life in the west won't care, because they won't break our laws to the degree it would warrant a deportation.

There's too much hiding behind this, 'he was born over here', his parents weren't and they know what he's up to, so mag to grid get rid!
 
So deport a whole family back because of the actions of one ? How far back do you go ? Grandparents as well ? People from certain countries only ever get a "temp passport" and then 50 years down the line the children who are all born here aren't allowed a full passport all because of the country their ancestors were born in ?

Which countries should be highlighted ? Saudi has a big issue with terrorists ? Same with Pakistan but yet both have people coming here that cause no issues whatsoever.

Issuing someone with a temporary citizenship and passport isn't going to stop them if they are that determined to cause havoc

When the IRA were causing issues for decades there wasn't the same calls for restrictions to Irish Catholics ?
 
Liverpoolphil said:
So deport a whole family back because of the actions of one ? How far back do you go ? Grandparents as well ? People from certain countries only ever get a "temp passport" and then 50 years down the line the children who are all born here aren't allowed a full passport all because of the country their ancestors were born in ?

Which countries should be highlighted ? Saudi has a big issue with terrorists ? Same with Pakistan but yet both have people coming here that cause no issues whatsoever.

Issuing someone with a temporary citizenship and passport isn't going to stop them if they are that determined to cause havoc

When the IRA were causing issues for decades there wasn't the same calls for restrictions to Irish Catholics ?
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What would you suggest?
 
Lord Tyrion said:
There was an interesting interview this morning on GMB, no really. It was a woman who I normally find unbearable but she actually spoke very well. Yasmin something or other. Anyway, her point was these people are following a Muslim doctrine, don't hide from this, don't pretend otherwise. It is an extreme version, medieval. There have been more Muslims killed by these people than any other religious group so don't think other Muslims escape or support this. She blamed a particular sect which I wont state as I don't know enough about it but which came predominantly from Saudi Arabia. Anyway, she stated that this section of the faith should not be allowed to run Mosques or schools in this country. A former extremist, now converted, agreed with her. She was a Shia Muslim by the way and no, the sect was not Sunny. Very interesting.
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No need to be concerned about it - Wahhabism is a severe form of Islam and Saudi Arabia's dominant faith. This came up with Trump lauding Saudi Arabia and selling them $Bns worth of military equipment and promising them 'great deals' with the US Defense Companies. Then Bragger goes on to blame everything on Iran - when in fact it is Saudi Arabia that is by all accounts the source of funding and recruitment for AQ and Daesh.
 
Hacker Khan said:
Very good point. Also I am lead to believe that they prevent the vast majority of these planned incidents occurring through intelligence. Of course you can not rest on your laurels but as you correctly say, they are hardly 'doing nothing'. In fact I am pretty sure they would be insulted by that accusation.
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I am not aware of anyone accusing the security services of doing nothing? All I have heard and read is in support of the great work they do.
 
Val said:
What would you suggest?
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We leave the security forces to continue with their great work - we will never ever stop someone carrying out an atrocity, that's the blunt truth - there have been terrorists for centuries now and there has never ever been any way to stop them fully - it's impossible.

Yes there does need to be more work required from police etc when people are being monitored - what I don't exactly know but we cannot pre judge people based on their religion or what country they or their ancestors were born in - that's not far away from Trumps Muslim ban yet that didn't stop him signing a billion dollar arms deal with them

The simple solution is for the country to stop getting involved in battles on their own soil but then we have also been doing that for centuries and did we expect them to sit back and allow us to kill their people in their country ?
 
woody69 said:
The security services are not 'doing nothing'. I don't have recent figures, but at the start of the year Britain had supposedly foiled 10 potential terrorist attacks over the previous 2 years and had over 550 'live' cases open. They have also convicted nearly 300 individuals on terror related offences in that time.

The problem is, for all that effort, all it takes is one to be successful and it is assumed we are not doing enough.
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I think you are misinterpreting what I am saying. If you read my post I clearly say that I agreed that the security services were doing a great job under difficult circumstances and that we should fund them to the level they need. My point about "doing nothing is not an option" was in relation to the government and those seeking election in June. IMO the law needs to be changed to allow the detention or tagging of suspects to assist the security services in their work. My doing nothing comment meant that continuing the way we are and tying one arm behind the backs of the security services is not an option. We have to do whatever we can to stop this evil.
 
Fish said:
Exactly, it's so easy to find all the excuses do nothing, isn't it!!
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No one has suggested do nothing - not one single person has said anything along those lines. Just because people don't think we should ever go along with the radical ideas you have produced doesn't mean they want to sit back and do nothing and suggestions of such are out of order
 
Is there any possibility that the usual suspects could lay off their usual tripe just this once???

The bodies are barely cold in the morgue...
 
Liverpoolphil said:
No one has suggested do nothing - not one single person has said anything along those lines. Just because people don't think we should ever go along with the radical ideas you have produced doesn't mean they want to sit back and do nothing and suggestions of such are out of order
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So what would you like to see done?
 
ger147 said:
Is there any possibility that the usual suspects could lay off their usual tripe just this once???

The bodies are barely cold in the morgue...
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That's exactly why it needs to be discussed. Brushing the problem under the carpet does nothing for the casualties and everything for the perpetrators.
 
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