Male privilege

[Bunkermagnet]

I think "sexism" and "lack of equality" is being mixed up with privelege. Someone I consider priveleged is someone born with the silver spoon in their mouth, and who gets on in life because of who or what they are. Lack of equality is what stops women from getting the same pay for the same job or getting the higher promotion.
However I do also feel that the PC brigade have overdone things.

 

[Deleted member 21258]

I didn't even know what the term Male privilege meant, so had to google it and found this :-

https://everydayfeminism.com/2016/02/160-examples-of-male-privilege/

Whilst I don't agree with some of these, certainly I can see the point of some of them.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

You are so scared of the repercussions, you use words like unfortunate in inverted commas and apologise for mentioning it!

Scared of the repercussions??? 'Unfortunate' was in quotes - might suggest I was suggesting a little more then actually unfortunate. And as I stated I was deliberately trying to not be adversarial by avoiding implying anything general about ethnic-minority communities - because male privilege issues do not exist in all ethnic-minority communities. Yet you still choose to have a go at me

 

[Hobbit]

I posed this question to HID last year, and truly horrified by the list she trotted out. Very little of it which I could question. The article in post #42 is well worth a read.

HID used to travel a lot with work. A privilege she hated was men can go for a meal and a beer and not be pestered, woman rarely can without some sickly comment from some beer fuelled idiot who often took offence from being rejected.

 

[bobmac]

I'm fairly sure there are still some jobs in the church that are men only

 

[jusme]

My initial question was absolutely aimed at Western developed cultures. That's where I am struggling to see the inequalities. And really hoping that someone can help me see real evidence of privilege.

I'd hope that everyone could agree that male privilege exists in other countries around the world, like the middle-east.

I tend to find the common comment (not on here so far, but when it comes up in conversation) is 'it exists everywhere in society'. Ok, where?
Another common one is the gender pay gap. But I am struggling to find any economist who agress with how the reports have been made.

Ok....I will bite (but I'm skeptical of your motives) given an interest in the field. The evidence on gender pay gaps is pretty unambiguous (even allowing for research bias) so I'm struggling to see why you can't see this. The reasons for such is more complex and largely influenced by time out for children. Is this evidence of Male privilege? That's a different argument

 

[Papas1982]

Ok....I will bite (but I'm skeptical of your motives) given an interest in the field. The evidence on gender pay gaps is pretty unambiguous (even allowing for research bias) so I'm struggling to see why you can't see this. The reasons for such is more complex and largely influenced by time out for children. Is this evidence of Male privilege? That's a different argument

Is that not the point though? I think most would agree that it can be shown men in some circumstances earn more, but it's not due to some sort of privilege. Just a way of life. It would be the same now if the dad took paternal leave and the mum went back to work early. A business can't imo be expected to hold of promotions to male staff in case a female one comes back.....

May men have a better opportunity, but not privilege.

 

[User20205]

‘Better opportunity but not privilege’ ???
If opportunity is down to gender alone then surely that is the definition of male privilege??
There are some underlying reasons, but it can’t be denied that male privilege exists. There are things I do without thinking that wouldn’t be possible, or would be difficult, if I was female.

 

[Tashyboy]

Think Male privilege is like Aliens. Might not have personally seen them but there both there. Seen a few women work in the coal industry and quiet frankly they were put in as a token gesture and not taken seriously. But they should of been. They all had something to offer.
One who was junior management was asked to do special project one bank holiday Monday. She had booked to go away. The project was cancelled the Monday morning when she arrived at work. The project, babysit the managers kids.

 

[Papas1982]

‘Better opportunity but not privilege’ ???
If opportunity is down to gender alone then surely that is the definition of male privilege??
There are some underlying reasons, but it can’t be denied that male privilege exists. There are things I do without thinking that wouldn’t be possible, or would be difficult, if I was female.

Ok, even though I think you totally missed the point as I clearly stated men could miss out if they took paternity leave.

Answer me this, What about the women who don’t have children, if they succeed are they taken advantage of (non mum privilege)?

 

[User20205]

Ok, even though I think you totally missed the point as I clearly stated men could miss out if they took paternity leave.

Answer me this, What about the women who don’t have children, if they succeed are they taken advantage of (non mum privilege)?

It’s not me that’s missing the point. Individual cases don’t illustrate the rule. However your example highlights the issue. Why should a woman have to choose between a child or a career? Men don’t...aka male privilege

It’s irrelevant what you & I think, we’re immersed in male privilege. Read the article in post 42. You won’t agree & I expect you’ll dismiss all the points but it’s a subjective argument & we’re on the wrong side of the divide.

 

[Bunkermagnet]

Why should a woman have to choose between a child or a career? Men don’t...aka male privilege

Women dont have to choose, they "balance" the needs of children and work. My wife has managed this with aplomb.
And talking about family, why is it its assumed that the women are looking after the children?. As a young dad, I can still remember that uncomfortable feeling of waiting at the school gates for my duaghters when they were young, and of being ignored by other mums because dads didnt do or know anything about their kids.
It's not just men who have stereotypical views on the sexes.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I'm fairly sure there are still some jobs in the church that are men only

Which church? It's perhaps best to not be generalistic about the church as all denominations are different and there are huge differences between some.

As it happens in my denomination there are no jobs that are men only. We are not all as stuck in the past as some might imagine

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I posed this question to HID last year, and truly horrified by the list she trotted out. Very little of it which I could question. The article in post #42 is well worth a read.

HID used to travel a lot with work. A privilege she hated was men can go for a meal and a beer and not be pestered, woman rarely can without some sickly comment from some beer fuelled idiot who often took offence from being rejected.

Good point - I suspect that if we think on 'male privilege' in this way then we can come up with many such examples - though whether they are 'male privilege' or discrimination against females might be debatable.

 

[SocketRocket]

We have developed certain traits that work against the natural instincts of life. If we accept that humans are a form of animal and as such have no supreme being shaping their existence then it would be reasonable to accept the natural way of animal species is for the male to adopt a dominant role in the family/society. The male is physically stronger and as such dominant in most other social groups. As Humans we consider ourselves able to develop social traits that contradict the natural order and we have indeed been fairly successful in this but in doing so we create social stresses that have adverse affects on our instincts. We can see clearly in our societies where the natural family unit has the male removed it tends to create many troubled children who become social outcasts due to lack of male role models.

In our modern western society we are beginning to reap what we have sown. Of course I may be completely wrong and no doubt those that believe the human race is unique in it's ability to form unnatural social structures will rage against this way of thinking.

 

[User20205]

it’s possible to get sidetracked by obvious biological differences between genders, no one can really deny those differences exist.
It’s more about entitlement, or perceived entitlement.
Could the Weinstein situation have occurred without male privilege? Is there a female equivalent to a Weinstein?

 

[Lazkir]

It's an intangible thing. The fact that I'm a white male is meaningless to me because I've gone through life just 'being' who I am.
I don't doubt for a second that I've been treated differently to a female of the same age/wealth/intelligence etc. But I've not really noticed it, how could I?
If I had, I'd like to think I would pull people up on it. But I genuinely can't remember being aware of a single episode of it happening in my presence.

As a father of two daughters I want the best for my girls, and I've been pulled up by them once or twice for saying things like 'you threw that like a girl'.
Now to me that was just an observation, but to them that was an insult. I'd never seen it like that until they pointed it out to me. (Girls do tend to throw in a different way to men imo. Happy to be corrected).

Male privilege is a result of thousands of years of patriarchal upbringing. It's insidious and all pervasive. I for one am happy to see it disappear. I have a healthy respect not only for the women in my life but for all women, everywhere.
But I also agree that 'quotas' that force women into positions for the sake of 'balance' is actually a bad thing in the general scheme of things.

Edit: Bit drunk, sorry for the ramble...

 

[bobmac]

Which church? It's perhaps best to not be generalistic about the church as all denominations are different and there are huge differences between some.

I'm well aware of that and because I can't be bothered to examine them all and to list them all, I i just went with 'the' church.

Do you deny there are some men only jobs in the church, any church?

Beats me why there has to be so many denominations

 

[Capella]

I work in software development, so a pretty male dominated field (even though it shouldn't be ... the first real computers were actually programmed by women during WW2, it was only later that it became an almost exclusively male occupation). I am quite good at my job, if I might say so myself, and never felt at a disadvantage over my male colleagues. In job interviews, the fact that I am a woman might even have given me an advantage in some cases, because team leaders felt it would be good to have a woman on the team (I am usually the only one). I've even worked for a company that had to install a second bathroom just for me.

My pay is a bit below average for my job, but that is mostly because I am not very aggressive when it comes to negotiating wages. It might sound a bit cliché, but money really is not that important to me. I am not striving for a "career" and to step up on a hierachical ladder either, mostly because that would mean taking over responsibilites which I'd simply hate (like project management, supervision etc.). Not saying I could not do it. Just saying I don't want to. Maybe that is a typcal "female" trait. I don't have a partner or children, so I am pretty much free to do as I please. Why would I take on jobs that put unwanted pressure on me just so that there are a few more Euros on my bank account each month? It is a choice I make. And maybe more women than men make that choice and that's the reason we have less women in leading positions.

I don't think it is a question of male priviledge anymore. It is more a question of gender roles we decide to keep or to change. I don't think the solution is to force more women into leading positions by quota. There is not much to be gained from that. Instead it is more important to let everyone, man or woman, boy or girl, chose the path he or she wants to take, without pushing any roles onto them. That starts with being cool if a little boy wants the pink shoes instead of the blue ones and a little girl prefers to play with race cars or Lego instead of Barbie dolls. (And I actually feel we are regressing there instead of progressing ... at least I can't remember children's clothing and toys being quite as gender branded in my childhood as they are now ... my Lego's were never pink and my (male) cousin had a doll called Susie which he abolutely loved and everyone was cool with that).

When I took a hiatus from software development, I worked in a sportswear store for a while. We had brightly coloured beanies for children. One day a mother walks in with her little boy, about 3 years old, and asks him to chose the beanie he likes. While the boy is looking at the different colours she turns to me:
"Isn't it fascinating how they always chose colours fitting their gender, even at that young age? Tommy would never wear anything red."
At that moment the little boy turns to the screaming raspberry coloured beanie and with a huge happy smile picks it up. His mother goes hysteric:
"Tommy, no ... that's for GIRLS!"

And there, people, starts gender inequality. And it is every bit as damaging for men as it is for women. We need to stop having expectations of people just because of the set of genitals they were born with and just allow them to be who they want to be. Then equality will follow.

 

[londonlewis]

Ok....I will bite (but I'm skeptical of your motives) given an interest in the field. The evidence on gender pay gaps is pretty unambiguous (even allowing for research bias) so I'm struggling to see why you can't see this. The reasons for such is more complex and largely influenced by time out for children. Is this evidence of Male privilege? That's a different argument

The evidence is pretty unambiguous? I really don't think it is though.
The method used to compile the data was to find the median value. That's why no serious economist is prepared to say they back the report. That's a pretty fundemental flaw, isn't it? No expert will put their name to it!

Also the report showed that women who are under 35 and do not have children out-earn men.
Which suggests that there isn't a male privilege, but actually a penalty for being female with children. Is this down to the choices that mothers make, rather than some bias that companies have against women?

Surely if companies could pay women less for doing the exact same job, a company would choose to exclusively hire women. Wouldn't they? To improve the bottom line.

It's not difficult to find flaws in the method used to compile the gender pay gap report. For example, look at the median wages earned in football. The gap is huge. No matter what you look at. Whether it is comparing the wages of the male footballers at a club vs female footballers or whether it is comparing wages of women who work for a football club but aren't footballers (i.e. work on turnstiles, in the corporate boxes etc...).

Maybe we should address the inequality for male models? (I know this is true as of approx 3 years ago, but don't know if it is still true) Cindy Crawford was the highest paid model in the 90s (I think it was 1992). No male model has ever earned more than she did that year.

The thing I am struggling with most is whether the commitments made (by companies, the government etc...) will actually tackle the issue. The issue, evidenced by the report, starts when women have children.