Male privilege

therod said:
It’s not me that’s missing the point. Individual cases don’t illustrate the rule. However your example highlights the issue. Why should a woman have to choose between a child or a career? Men don’t...aka male privilege

It’s irrelevant what you & I think, we’re immersed in male privilege. Read the article in post 42. You won’t agree & I expect you’ll dismiss all the points but it’s a subjective argument & we’re on the wrong side of the divide.
Click to expand...

If what I think is irrelevant purely because I am a man, wouldn't that be female privilege?
 
Capella said:
I work in software development, so a pretty male dominated field (even though it shouldn't be ... the first real computers were actually programmed by women during WW2, it was only later that it became an almost exclusively male occupation). I am quite good at my job, if I might say so myself, and never felt at a disadvantage over my male colleagues. In job interviews, the fact that I am a woman might even have given me an advantage in some cases, because team leaders felt it would be good to have a woman on the team (I am usually the only one). I've even worked for a company that had to install a second bathroom just for me.

My pay is a bit below average for my job, but that is mostly because I am not very aggressive when it comes to negotiating wages. It might sound a bit cliché, but money really is not that important to me. I am not striving for a "career" and to step up on a hierachical ladder either, mostly because that would mean taking over responsibilites which I'd simply hate (like project management, supervision etc.). Not saying I could not do it. Just saying I don't want to. Maybe that is a typcal "female" trait. I don't have a partner or children, so I am pretty much free to do as I please. Why would I take on jobs that put unwanted pressure on me just so that there are a few more Euros on my bank account each month? It is a choice I make. And maybe more women than men make that choice and that's the reason we have less women in leading positions.

I don't think it is a question of male priviledge anymore. It is more a question of gender roles we decide to keep or to change. I don't think the solution is to force more women into leading positions by quota. There is not much to be gained from that. Instead it is more important to let everyone, man or woman, boy or girl, chose the path he or she wants to take, without pushing any roles onto them. That starts with being cool if a little boy wants the pink shoes instead of the blue ones and a little girl prefers to play with race cars or Lego instead of Barbie dolls. (And I actually feel we are regressing there instead of progressing ... at least I can't remember children's clothing and toys being quite as gender branded in my childhood as they are now ... my Lego's were never pink and my (male) cousin had a doll called Susie which he abolutely loved and everyone was cool with that).

When I took a hiatus from software development, I worked in a sportswear store for a while. We had brightly coloured beanies for children. One day a mother walks in with her little boy, about 3 years old, and asks him to chose the beanie he likes. While the boy is looking at the different colours she turns to me:
"Isn't it fascinating how they always chose colours fitting their gender, even at that young age? Tommy would never wear anything red."
At that moment the little boy turns to the screaming raspberry coloured beanie and with a huge happy smile picks it up. His mother goes hysteric:
"Tommy, no ... that's for GIRLS!"

And there, people, starts gender inequality. And it is every bit as damaging for men as it is for women. We need to stop having expectations of people just because of the set of genitals they were born with and just allow them to be who they want to be. Then equality will follow.
Click to expand...

Really good insight around work & childhood. Thanks.
 
londonlewis said:
If what I think is irrelevant purely because I am a man, wouldn't that be female privilege?
Click to expand...

Not really mate. It a bit like asking UKIP if racism exists in the UK. You’ve got to be on the wrong side of the divide to establish its existence. How can we really comment on male privilege when we are immersed in it?
 
therod said:
Not really mate. It a bit like asking UKIP if racism exists in the UK. You’ve got to be on the wrong side of the divide to establish its existence. How can we really comment on male privilege when we are immersed in it?
Click to expand...

Not sure I follow the logic.
I can't comment on male privilege because I am not a woman. Does that mean I can't comment on professional football, because I'm not a footballer?
 
londonlewis said:
Not sure I follow the logic.
I can't comment on male privilege because I am not a woman. Does that mean I can't comment on professional football, because I'm not a footballer?
Click to expand...

Of course you can. Millions of men (and quite a few women) comment on football all the time. Just go to the next pub during a game. Everyone is an expert. But I guess that most footballers would just roll their eyes and politely smile through the gag reflex at the comments.
 
londonlewis said:
Not sure I follow the logic.
I can't comment on male privilege because I am not a woman. Does that mean I can't comment on professional football, because I'm not a footballer?
Click to expand...
Logic being...how can you acknowledge it’s existence or otherwise if you haven’t suffered as a result of it. You can have an opinion on football, but unless you’ve played it you can’t talk with authority.IMO. Otherwise why aren’t the fellas from the ‘we’re off thread’ on sky?? Because they spout blinkered uninformed nonsense.
Why do you care about male privilege anyway? You started the thread?
 
therod said:
Logic being...how can you acknowledge it’s existence or otherwise if you haven’t suffered as a result of it. You can have an opinion on football, but unless you’ve played it you can’t talk with authority.IMO. Otherwise why aren’t the fellas from the ‘we’re off thread’ on sky?? Because they spout blinkered uninformed nonsense.
Why do you care about male privilege anyway? You started the thread?
Click to expand...

Remind me, what football team did John Motson play for?
 
bobmac said:
I'm well aware of that and because I can't be bothered to examine them all and to list them all, I i just went with 'the' church.

Do you deny there are some men only jobs in the church, any church?

Beats me why there has to be so many denominations :confused:
Click to expand...

Not denying for one moment - though my understanding of the way other denominations are organised is very limited so I am not sure where there migt be men-only jobs.

And as you asked - the reason there are so many denominations is simply because we Christians can take different views on what is actually important in respect of what is written in the Bible and in practicing our believe and faith. Hence Martin Luther; his 95 Theses, and The Reformation :)

And so it came to pass that in the URC there is no male privilege whatsoever of which I am aware - and that is 'a very good thing'
 
Last edited:
londonlewis said:
Fair comment.
Click to expand...
I’m not being difficult, maybe just devils advocate. We (I) have maybe benefitted from this, I don’t think we can talk with great authority on it.
I don’t have to question what I wear or where I go for fear of unwanted attention/comments, no one ever tells me to ‘smile more luv’. I’ve no idea what that’s like, can you honestly say you do?

Male privilege for me is the ability to go into a pub and not get hassled as I’m by myself. Or wear shorts without anyone thinking I’m up for it.
Most normal fellas don’t indulge in behaviour that this alludes to but a significant minority do.
 
Capella said:
I work in software development, so a pretty male dominated field (even though it shouldn't be ... the first real computers were actually programmed by women during WW2, it was only later that it became an almost exclusively male occupation). I am quite good at my job, if I might say so myself, and never felt at a disadvantage over my male colleagues. In job interviews, the fact that I am a woman might even have given me an advantage in some cases, because team leaders felt it would be good to have a woman on the team (I am usually the only one). I've even worked for a company that had to install a second bathroom just for me.

My pay is a bit below average for my job, but that is mostly because I am not very aggressive when it comes to negotiating wages. It might sound a bit cliché, but money really is not that important to me. I am not striving for a "career" and to step up on a hierachical ladder either, mostly because that would mean taking over responsibilites which I'd simply hate (like project management, supervision etc.). Not saying I could not do it. Just saying I don't want to. Maybe that is a typcal "female" trait. I don't have a partner or children, so I am pretty much free to do as I please. Why would I take on jobs that put unwanted pressure on me just so that there are a few more Euros on my bank account each month? It is a choice I make. And maybe more women than men make that choice and that's the reason we have less women in leading positions.

I don't think it is a question of male priviledge anymore. It is more a question of gender roles we decide to keep or to change. I don't think the solution is to force more women into leading positions by quota. There is not much to be gained from that. Instead it is more important to let everyone, man or woman, boy or girl, chose the path he or she wants to take, without pushing any roles onto them. That starts with being cool if a little boy wants the pink shoes instead of the blue ones and a little girl prefers to play with race cars or Lego instead of Barbie dolls. (And I actually feel we are regressing there instead of progressing ... at least I can't remember children's clothing and toys being quite as gender branded in my childhood as they are now ... my Lego's were never pink and my (male) cousin had a doll called Susie which he abolutely loved and everyone was cool with that).

When I took a hiatus from software development, I worked in a sportswear store for a while. We had brightly coloured beanies for children. One day a mother walks in with her little boy, about 3 years old, and asks him to chose the beanie he likes. While the boy is looking at the different colours she turns to me:
"Isn't it fascinating how they always chose colours fitting their gender, even at that young age? Tommy would never wear anything red."
At that moment the little boy turns to the screaming raspberry coloured beanie and with a huge happy smile picks it up. His mother goes hysteric:
"Tommy, no ... that's for GIRLS!"

And there, people, starts gender inequality. And it is every bit as damaging for men as it is for women. We need to stop having expectations of people just because of the set of genitals they were born with and just allow them to be who they want to be. Then equality will follow.
Click to expand...

Great post, Well said :clap:
 
SwingsitlikeHogan said:
Not denying for one moment - though my understanding of the way other denominations are organised is very limited so I am not sure where there migt be men-only jobs.

And as you asked - the reason there are so many denominations is simply because we Christians can take different views on what is actually important in respect of what is written in the Bible and in practicing our believe and faith. Hence Martin Luther; his 95 Theses, and The Reformation :)

And so it came to pass that in the URC there is no male privilege whatsoever of which I am aware - and that is 'a very good thing'
Click to expand...

Tempting but I'd only get told off.
I'm out
 
therod said:
I’m not being difficult, maybe just devils advocate. We (I) have maybe benefitted from this, I don’t think we can talk with great authority on it.
I don’t have to question what I wear or where I go for fear of unwanted attention/comments, no one ever tells me to ‘smile more luv’. I’ve no idea what that’s like, can you honestly say you do?

Male privilege for me is the ability to go into a pub and not get hassled as I’m by myself. Or wear shorts without anyone thinking I’m up for it.
Most normal fellas don’t indulge in behaviour that this alludes to but a significant minority do.
Click to expand...

I think this has been a pretty civil thread therod, with some good food for thought. I certainly haven't felt you (or anyone) was being difficult. So no complaints from me.

This is genuine; I've been working at the same company for 6 years and people have commented on my clothes (work and civilian for dress down on Fridays) for the whole 6 years I have been here. And the comments are not complimentary. It has never and will never faze me. So yes, in this regard I absolutely can say I know what it is like.

The other points; no. Not really.

On the flip side; I've never been let into a nightclub for free, had a drink bought for me or had my dinner paid for on a date.
But I really think all of these are minor, non-consequential points.

Key issues would be things like;
- male suicide rates
- length of prison sentences for males vs females when the same crime is committed
- healthcare spending on men vs women
 
therod said:
It’s not me that’s missing the point. Individual cases don’t illustrate the rule. However your example highlights the issue. Why should a woman have to choose between a child or a career? Men don’t...aka male privilege

It’s irrelevant what you & I think, we’re immersed in male privilege. Read the article in post 42. You won’t agree & I expect you’ll dismiss all the points but it’s a subjective argument & we’re on the wrong side of the divide.
Click to expand...

I read the link, I think some are valid and some are complete nonsense. But the. I think women on occasion will take advantage of men just as equally as is suggested with male privilege.

Imo some of the real issue that have been mentioned since, about lewd comments on dressing up (shirt skirt, she’s up for it) doesn’t prove male privilege, it just proves some men are deplorable.
 
Capella said:
I work in software development, so a pretty male dominated field (even though it shouldn't be ... the first real computers were actually programmed by women during WW2, it was only later that it became an almost exclusively male occupation). I am quite good at my job, if I might say so myself, and never felt at a disadvantage over my male colleagues. In job interviews, the fact that I am a woman might even have given me an advantage in some cases, because team leaders felt it would be good to have a woman on the team (I am usually the only one). I've even worked for a company that had to install a second bathroom just for me.

My pay is a bit below average for my job, but that is mostly because I am not very aggressive when it comes to negotiating wages. It might sound a bit cliché, but money really is not that important to me. I am not striving for a "career" and to step up on a hierachical ladder either, mostly because that would mean taking over responsibilites which I'd simply hate (like project management, supervision etc.). Not saying I could not do it. Just saying I don't want to. Maybe that is a typcal "female" trait. I don't have a partner or children, so I am pretty much free to do as I please. Why would I take on jobs that put unwanted pressure on me just so that there are a few more Euros on my bank account each month? It is a choice I make. And maybe more women than men make that choice and that's the reason we have less women in leading positions.

I don't think it is a question of male priviledge anymore. It is more a question of gender roles we decide to keep or to change. I don't think the solution is to force more women into leading positions by quota. There is not much to be gained from that. Instead it is more important to let everyone, man or woman, boy or girl, chose the path he or she wants to take, without pushing any roles onto them. That starts with being cool if a little boy wants the pink shoes instead of the blue ones and a little girl prefers to play with race cars or Lego instead of Barbie dolls. (And I actually feel we are regressing there instead of progressing ... at least I can't remember children's clothing and toys being quite as gender branded in my childhood as they are now ... my Lego's were never pink and my (male) cousin had a doll called Susie which he abolutely loved and everyone was cool with that).

When I took a hiatus from software development, I worked in a sportswear store for a while. We had brightly coloured beanies for children. One day a mother walks in with her little boy, about 3 years old, and asks him to chose the beanie he likes. While the boy is looking at the different colours she turns to me:
"Isn't it fascinating how they always chose colours fitting their gender, even at that young age? Tommy would never wear anything red."
At that moment the little boy turns to the screaming raspberry coloured beanie and with a huge happy smile picks it up. His mother goes hysteric:
"Tommy, no ... that's for GIRLS!"

And there, people, starts gender inequality. And it is every bit as damaging for men as it is for women. We need to stop having expectations of people just because of the set of genitals they were born with and just allow them to be who they want to be. Then equality will follow.
Click to expand...

Brilliant post.
 
Clearly different people have different views on what equates to male privilege.
 
how Do you define privilege, to me a privilege is something you are granted , over and above another person.

Many things that are seen as privileges are simply the result of generations of traditional gender roles which are gradually becoming less defined as time passes.
For instance it used to be that the women stayed home to look after the kids, the man went to work (gender roles) . But then the man would often go to the pub with his mates, while the woman stayed home ( privilege).(simplistic illustration).

So regarding modern male privilege, what can I do that my wife can’t do ( if she wanted to), I’m struggling to find anything tbh. I have 3 daughters aged 24.22 & 20 and they all recognise the opportunities open to them are so much greater than when their mum was their age, they do not feel inferior to men in any way.

That’s not to say that there aren’t inequalities that need addressing regarding pay, casual and overt sexism etc but I’m not sure that male privilege exists in my world.

Now it certainly does exist in some cultures that have been imported into the uk over the last 100 years, but that’s a different thread.
 
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