London Tower Block Fire

Tarkus1212 said:
The Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea was projecting reserves of £42m for the end of 2016-17.
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yes. Staffordshire has done the same and i think its utterly appalling. however, the mayor did tell me that part of their obligation to the county is to have x amount in reserve for dire need. so i see that as they have money to spend once the people are dead but none to stop them getting "dead".
as bad as it might sound the fire service will use this incident to ride its own agenda in getting sprinklers fitted to all buildings over 18 meters. Councils will find it difficult to say no.
 
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Tashyboy said:
And why can't we have both?

Honestly think that this country is now beginning to see the fruits of successive governments cuts cuts cuts. The police, NHS, ambulance service and councils have been banging on about it for years. They are all saying we cannot provide an adequate service with what you are giving us. Coz a majority of us don't work in the police, NHS, ambulance service, councils etc etc etc. Obviously it's just crap coz it don't directly affect us. But does it directly affect us. If there is one thing that pricks our conscience it is the things we actually see on telly/media. In my life time, Bradford fire disaster, Hillsborough, London tower block, 911 and unfortunately ave probably missed out another dozen are tragic examples.
What happend should never ever of happened. But it did. The job done by the fire brigade was just epic. The aftermath by this government was atrocious and no wonder people are bogged off. I am certain that were this event to of happend the week before the election Theresa May and her party would now be the opposition.
A generation of cuts and cheapest quote now gets the job, is now producing dire consequences for all of us.
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Fair post. And if they continue as they are state education is next as it is quickly being run into the ground.
 
hovis said:
unfortunately the majority of the public don't know just how dire the situation is with the emergency services. we turned upto a car crash persons trapped the other day after 25 minutes. it should be less than 8. we also have paramedics based at our station. one of the guys was called to a code red heart attack in Coventry!!! thats 21 miles door to door. the bloke died. all these things are happening right under you nose and most have no idea until they're in a moment of need

one thing that is currently going on under the radar is the government are making the fire service attend marauding terrorist incidents. not for fire purposes but to patch up casualties that the terrorist have created whilst on their rampage. what training are they giving us???? a stab vest and 18 hours Internet based trauma training. personally if i was lying on the floor I'd like to see a paramedic
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Hovis, irrespective of political allegiance, And I don't have one. I have always been a floating voter. So I will say it how I feel it is. I have spoken to Prison officers and there stories are scary re lowdham grange where my son worked. My daughter is a Bobby. I can only thank the Lord I don't live in Sheffield as the cover is atrocious. I worked alongside firemen who covered sth Yorks/ north Notts via Harworth station and it was not comfy listening to there stories.
The one common denominator was that management were in place and were nodding donkeys, knowing full well that if they did not do it ( company policy, cut costs,do as was told) then someone else would do it, even if they knew it was wrong. Services have been slashed, standards are not what they should be and Joe public is now beginning to see the results of said cuts.
 
hovis said:
...the fire service will use this incident to ride its own agenda in getting sprinklers fitted to all buildings over 18 meters. Councils will find it difficult to say no.
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Good!

Though the question of how they are/can be 'tested' is ever-present!
 
Foxholer said:
Good!

Though the question of how they are/can be 'tested' is ever-present!
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Sadly sprinklers are just a good idea nothing more....... They simply would not work in social housing any more than fire alarm systems do.

A little over a year ago as part of refurb work on a block of flats in Bethnal Green we installed a full L1 fire detection system connected to magnets to hold every fire door open. In the first week it went live the Fire Brigade were called out every night. Junkies smashing the call points, vandalism to the smoke detectors etc. We was told by Tower Hamlets council that the fire brigade were either going to stop attending or start charging them for false alarms. We were instructed to disconnect the sounders and mute the panel. So to this day the alarm is in "Fire" mode and because all the magnets have released the residents are going back to wedging the doors open.
The cost of this system was nearly £55k. A great idea that just doesn't work in real life.
 
Fade and Die said:
Sadly sprinklers are just a good idea nothing more....... They simply would not work in social housing any more than fire alarm systems do.

A little over a year ago as part of refurb work on a block of flats in Bethnal Green we installed a full L1 fire detection system connected to magnets to hold every fire door open. In the first week it went live the Fire Brigade were called out every night. Junkies smashing the call points, vandalism to the smoke detectors etc. We was told by Tower Hamlets council that the fire brigade were either going to stop attending or start charging them for false alarms. We were instructed to disconnect the sounders and mute the panel. So to this day the alarm is in "Fire" mode and because all the magnets have released the residents are going back to wedging the doors open.
The cost of this system was nearly £55k. A great idea that just doesn't work in real life.
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sorry but you couldn't be further from the truth. sprinkler systems even in a residential property make a huge difference in fire suppression. i know because i have been sat in a mock up house next to a fire holding a thermostat until it reaches 500 degrees and then repeated the test with sprinkler systems. as for false alarms and vandalism i can say i have never been to a false alarm or vandalised sprinkler system in 11 years and many in our area are in social deprived housing.
 
hovis said:
sorry but you couldn't be further from the truth. sprinkler systems even in a residential property make a huge difference in fire suppression. i know because i have been sat in a mock up house next to a fire holding a thermostat until it reaches 500 degrees and then repeated the test with sprinkler systems. as for false alarms and vandalism i can say i have never been to a false alarm or vandalised sprinkler system in 11 years and many in our area are in social deprived housing.
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This block is not just social housing. There are some owned flats so I don't think this comes under the heading "socially deprived".
 
Fade and Die said:
Sadly sprinklers are just a good idea nothing more....... They simply would not work in social housing any more than fire alarm systems do.

A little over a year ago as part of refurb work on a block of flats in Bethnal Green we installed a full L1 fire detection system connected to magnets to hold every fire door open. In the first week it went live the Fire Brigade were called out every night. Junkies smashing the call points, vandalism to the smoke detectors etc. We was told by Tower Hamlets council that the fire brigade were either going to stop attending or start charging them for false alarms. We were instructed to disconnect the sounders and mute the panel. So to this day the alarm is in "Fire" mode and because all the magnets have released the residents are going back to wedging the doors open.
The cost of this system was nearly £55k. A great idea that just doesn't work in real life.
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While you may be correct, your entire post was irrelevant to SPRINKLERS!

@Old Skier... You need to re-read Hovis's post! The 'social housing' bit was an 'add-on' point (...many in our area...), not the main one!
 
drdel said:
There are reports that the residents objected to the installation of sprinklers
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Plenty of evidence saying that this claim is untrue.... And, what if it was true... Are the authorities that poor they can't implement basic safety measures...

I believe no lives have been lost in a tower block, here in the UK, where sprinklers have been in place...
 
MegaSteve said:
Plenty of evidence saying that this claim is untrue.... And, what if it was true... Are the authorities that poor they can't implement basic safety measures...

I believe no lives have been lost in a tower block, here in the UK, where sprinklers have been in place...
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I think a lot of tower blocks are 100% electric though. I've read that this block was originally 100% electric supply only but residents in 2005 wanted gas and in 2009 it was agreed to add gas, this meant gas pipes were then run up stairwells and into corridors to access the flats where boilers were all then fitted.

Surely any building (especially flats) not designed to have a gas supply can't then just run pipes in these areas which would then cause even more safety breaches when a fire takes place?
 
hovis said:
sorry but you couldn't be further from the truth. sprinkler systems even in a residential property make a huge difference in fire suppression. i know because i have been sat in a mock up house next to a fire holding a thermostat until it reaches 500 degrees and then repeated the test with sprinkler systems. as for false alarms and vandalism i can say i have never been to a false alarm or vandalised sprinkler system in 11 years and many in our area are in social deprived housing.
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I was not saying that Sprinklers systems are not very effective, i know they are especially in offices, sheltered housing and certain residential blocks. I just don't think they would work in these kind of social housing blocks......... As soon as the little crew sitting on the stairs smoking and spitting all evening realise what a laugh setting off a sprinkler head is that will be the end of it. The system will be decommissioned like the Fire alarm system i was referring to.
I have installed Fire alarms and AOV (smoke vent) systems in blocks throughout Tower Hamlets and Barking & Dagenham and I know from experience the problems with certain (not all) residents.

@Old Skier just because a lot of people have exercised there right to buy it doesn't make it any less of a social housing scheme. Many of the flats that are owned have been turned into HMOs by the leaseholder and are often the most neglected in the block.
 
Fade and Die said:
I was not saying that Sprinklers systems are not very effective, i know they are especially in offices, sheltered housing and certain residential blocks. I just don't think they would work in these kind of social housing blocks......... As soon as the little crew sitting on the stairs smoking and spitting all evening realise what a laugh setting off a sprinkler head is that will be the end of it. The system will be decommissioned like the Fire alarm system i was referring to.
I have installed Fire alarms and AOV (smoke vent) systems in blocks throughout Tower Hamlets and Barking & Dagenham and I know from experience the problems with certain (not all) residents.

@Old Skier just because a lot of people have exercised there right to buy it doesn't make it any less of a social housing scheme. Many of the flats that are owned have been turned into HMOs by the leaseholder and are often the most neglected in the block.
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your wrong. they do work in these situations. if you saying they wont work just because they will be abused then that doesn't stop the effectiveness of the sprinklers does it. also sprinklers are only to be installed in the actual flats not in protected staircases.

i have never known of a vandalised sprinkler system anywhere in Staffordshire in 11 years but have attended multiple flat fire's where sprinklers would have saved the property. if they do happen to be activated by dick heads for a laugh now and then that's ok with me. its a small price to pay
 
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Fish said:
I think a lot of tower blocks are 100% electric though. I've read that this block was originally 100% electric supply only but residents in 2005 wanted gas and in 2009 it was agreed to add gas, this meant gas pipes were then run up stairwells and into corridors to access the flats where boilers were all then fitted.

Surely any building (especially flats) not designed to have a gas supply can't then just run pipes in these areas which would then cause even more safety breaches when a fire takes place?
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flats that have had a retro fit of gas have a auto shut off valve should the pipes become compromised.

the gas pipes themselves are fed into the flats via the utilities ducts that are there anyhow
 
hovis said:
flats that have had a retro fit of gas have a auto shut off valve should the pipes become compromised.

the gas pipes themselves are fed into the flats via the utilities ducts that are there anyhow
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I don't think that was the case in this scenario as residents have gone on record stating that 22mm gas pipes are/were running exposed up all the stairwells and then branched into each corridor and subsequent flat.

Maybe it was done like that because it was cheaper at the time?
 
MegaSteve said:
Plenty of evidence saying that this claim is untrue.... And, what if it was true... Are the authorities that poor they can't implement basic safety measures...

I believe no lives have been lost in a tower block, here in the UK, where sprinklers have been in place...
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I think 50% would not allow access to their properties to permit installation.
 
drdel said:
I think 50% would not allow access to their properties to permit installation.
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this is the problem with the 6 tower blocks in our patch. the council can enforce it on them but it has to go through the courts. up until now the council wouldn't. i have a feeling things might change in that respect
 
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