Lateral relief but it has to be nearer the hole?

[inc0gnito]

What's the interpretation of the lateral relief rule here? You play your tee shot and it crosses the red staked penalty area, only for it to hit a bank or spin back into the red penalty area. You can't play it as it lies because it's rested in some rocks or water. You could go back to the tee under strole and distance but I don't want to So you want to take lateral relief. The lateral relief rule says that you can't drop any closer to the hole. But because the penalty area is perpendicular to the hole, it's ALWAYS going to be closer to the hole.

Am I correct in thinking you can drop the ball exactly where the ball crossed the line and two club lengths left or right of that only? What if it bounces forward - do you have to drop again?

p.s. sorry for the oversized crude picture!

 

[Colin L]

No. Your reference point for relief has to be on another part of the course than the penalty area and since the line is in the penalty area your reference point cannot be on it.
17.1d(3)

 

[salfordlad]

In short, if there is no relief area available that is not closer to the hole, then the lateral relief option is unavailable in this case.

This would be a course-marking screw up by the Committee. That line can be put into a place that would preclude this outcome. Or a Dropping Zone could be utilized.

 

[Steven Rules]

I was going to give a quick geometry lesson on the size of the theoretical relief area on the green side of the penalty area, but I'll hold off for now. (I have previously done the mathematical calculations.)

If you don't want to take stroke and distance and go back to the tee, another option in your diagram would be to take back on the line penalty relief on the tee side of the penalty area.

 

[salfordlad]

I was going to give a quick geometry lesson on the size of the theoretical relief area on the green side of the penalty area, but I'll hold off for now. (I have previously done the mathematical calculations.)

If you don't want to take stroke and distance and go back to the tee, another option in your diagram would be to take back on the line penalty relief on the tee side of the penalty area.

Perhaps a non-steady hand with the red paint line could make the geometry a bit messy?

 

[inc0gnito]

No. Your reference point for relief has to be on another part of the course than the penalty area and since the line is in the penalty area your reference point cannot be on it.
17.1d(3)

Not understanding this at all sorry. The grey line (the path of the ball) started outside of the penalty area (greenside) so the reference point would be where the ball last entered the penalty area.

(3) Lateral Relief (Only for Red Penalty Area). When the ball last crossed the edge of a red penalty area, the player may drop the original ball or another ball in this lateral relief area (see Rule 14.3):

• Reference Point: The estimated point where the original ball last crossed the edge of the red penalty area.
• Size of Relief Area Measured from Reference Point: Two club-lengths, but with these limits:
• Limits on Location of Relief Area:
  • Must not be nearer the hole than the reference point, and
  • May be in any area of the course except the same penalty area

 

[Steven Rules]

Perhaps a non-steady hand with the red paint line could make the geometry a bit messy?

Yes. It's fine in theory on paper, but quite another thing to measure it out in practice on the golf course.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

When we see this happen on tour we have seen players take relief that is closer to the hole

Do they use a drop zone that can be used ?

 

[Steven Rules]

The only way they could be taking relief in a spot that is closer to the hole than the reference point is by using a dropping zone.

More generally, there is no blanket prohibition on dropping on the green side of the penalty area. There are many situations where the geometry permits this.

 

[Oldbutwise]

The reference point is where it last crossed the boundary of the penalty area. 2 club lengths left or right would take you further from the hole although the stance might not be ideal. If it bounces forward you have one more attempt. If that also bounces forward then place the ball where it first touched the ground. I'd take back on line relief on the tee side!

 

[rulefan]

What's the interpretation of the lateral relief rule here? You play your tee shot and it crosses the red staked penalty area, only for it to hit a bank or spin back into the red penalty area. You can't play it as it lies because it's rested in some rocks or water. You could go back to the tee under strole and distance but I don't want to So you want to take lateral relief. The lateral relief rule says that you can't drop any closer to the hole. But because the penalty area is perpendicular to the hole, it's ALWAYS going to be closer to the hole.

Am I correct in thinking you can drop the ball exactly where the ball crossed the line and two club lengths left or right of that only? What if it bounces forward - do you have to drop again?

What about going 'back on a line' ? Just below the lower red line.
17.1d(2)

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[inc0gnito]

What about going 'back on a line' ? Just below the lower red line.
17.1d(2)

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in general yeah, but i wanted to know specifically about the lateral relief part. Say for example, back on the line was no good because of really thick rough or trees.

 

[Voyager EMH]

I've tried to illustrate what I think is being discussed with regards to the possibility of green-side relief, within 2 clublengths and no nearer the hole.
Like I said - I've tried. Not very good, but I've tried.

With the red line at right-angle to line of play, this is going to be a tiny slither and unlikely to be practical. The further from the hole - the tinier the slither.

If the red line is more diagonal across the fairway - the more likely a practical slither green-side.

 

[inc0gnito]

The reference point is where it last crossed the boundary of the penalty area. 2 club lengths left or right would take you further from the hole although the stance might not be ideal. If it bounces forward you have one more attempt. If that also bounces forward then place the ball where it first touched the ground. I'd take back on line relief on the tee side!

Yeah surely that'd be ok right? If you look at the picture below and draw a line from the flag to the reference point (x). With that line you draw a circle around the flag and this would be the "no closer to the hole" circle. The purple arc is the 2 club length lateral relief circle. So when you put the two together, the remaining purple patch not covered by the yellow circle is technically no closer to the hole right?
I know you cant draw lines on the gold course, but the theory's correct right!? To be safe, anywhere on the 2 club length line would surely be acceptable.

 

[inc0gnito]

I've tried to illustrate what I think is being discussed with regards to the possibility of green-side relief, within 2 clublengths and no nearer the hole.
Like I said - I've tried. Not very good, but I've tried.

With the red line at right-angle to line of play, this is going to be a tiny slither and unlikely to be practical. The further from the hole - the tinier the slither.

If the red line is more diagonal across the fairway - the more likely a practical slither green-side.

View attachment 59972

I've just come to the same conclusion in the post below. Great minds!

 

[rulie]

Yeah surely that'd be ok right? If you look at the picture below and draw a line from the flag to the reference point (x). With that line you draw a circle around the flag and this would be the "no closer to the hole" circle. The purple arc is the 2 club length lateral relief circle. So when you put the two together, the remaining purple patch not covered by the yellow circle is technically no closer to the hole right?
I know you cant draw lines on the gold course, but the theory's correct right!? To be safe, anywhere on the 2 club length line would surely be acceptable.
View attachment 59973

This diagram may not be correct in that the radius of the circle is too short - it has to extend all the way to the red line, the point where the ball last crossed the edge of the penalty area.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Is it not also the case that (if we work on the basis that the purple area in the diagram is correctly defined) the fact that the player cannot drop in the purple area and then take a stance to play the ball forward or towards the green without standing in the PA is irrelevant. He can take a full relief stance and play his ball even though that might well be in a very less than idea direction…tough. Back in line or S&D.

 

[rulie]

Is it not also the case that (if we work on the basis that the purple area in the diagram is correctly defined) the fact that the player cannot drop in the purple area and then take a stance to play the ball forward or towards the green without standing in the PA is irrelevant. He can take a full relief stance and play his ball even though that might well be in a very less than idea direction…tough. Back in line or S&D.

What do you mean by "take a full relief stance"? Relief from what?

 

[inc0gnito]

This diagram may not be correct in that the radius of the circle is too short - it has to extend all the way to the red line, the point where the ball last crossed the edge of the penalty area.

Is that true thugh? Surely the reference point would begin at the point just before the penalty area line rather than on it?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

What do you mean by "take a full relief stance"? Relief from what?

Relief is the wrong word, and indeed whatever the word might be It's irrelevant. I have checked and if I am taking a penalty drop from a PA, after I have taken the drop I am allowed to take my stance in the PA?