Irons - you don't hit down on them!

[Maninblack4612]

Relating to another thread about how to hit hybrids i.e. hit down like irons or sweep away like woods I don't think we should consciously hit irons with a downward blow at all.

Look at these two videos. One is a wedge, the other a long iron. In both cases the club approaches the ball running almost parallel to the ground & strikes the ball cleanly. The divot occurs after the ball because of action & reaction. The ball going up exerts considerable downward pressure on the clubhead, which goes down into the turf & causes the divot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuenS46LXiI

https://youtu.be/m5aJR6qxy6Y

This goes along with the advice of short game expert Stan Utley "The art of the Short Game" - great book), who says that the swing on pitches should shallow out at the bottom to give a larger margin of error. Hitting down steeply on the ball just means that the strike has to be more precise to avoid topping the ball or digging into the turf.

The main reason we don't take bigger divots with woods & hybrids is because the swing is shallower because of the length of the club & the fact that the downward force on the club at impact is more oblique & the clubhead is heavier & not deflected as much.

 

[fundy]

yes you do, go on a launch monitor and your angle of attack will be negative ie downwards, you dont want that angle to be too steep but you do want it to be downwards

 

[garyinderry]

There is nothing shallow about that larazzabal video. He has literally stuck the club into the dirt.

 

[Maninblack4612]

There is nothing shallow about that larazzabal video. He has literally stuck the club into the dirt.

If you look carefully you can see the club descend vertically immediately after impact because he's hit the ball so hard. Had the ball not even there he would hardly have taken a divot at all.

 

[garyinderry]

This is a topic for the coach.


The clubhead can and does get deflected downwards. Ive seen the videos too.


But that wedge in the video above was driven into the ground. He was trying to flight it down with the wind blowing hard.

 

[duncan mackie]

Can't we just agree that you can't hit up on anything except a driver teed up a very long way....

After which logically you would accept that as getting the club to track perfectly level with the surface of the ground at impact is tough...

So the feeling of slightly down through the back of the ball works for most

That's not up, not level, but slightly down - after which, as Churchill would explain it, the principle is established and it's just a matter of degrees D)

 

[Maninblack4612]

Can't we just agree that you can't hit up on anything except a driver teed up a very long way....

After which logically you would accept that as getting the club to track perfectly level with the surface of the ground at impact is tough...

So the feeling of slightly down through the back of the ball works for most

That's not up, not level, but slightly down - after which, as Churchill would explain it, the principle is established and it's just a matter of degrees D)

Yes, I think what is important is ball first, and trying to achieve that gives the feeling of hitting down on it.

 

[Dan2501]

https://blog.trackmangolf.com/trackman-average-tour-stats/

Have a read of this - these are Tour averages. Hitting down on every club through the bag - down as much as 5* with a PW.

 

[Beezerk]

I see both videos as a downward strikes from the club, not parallel at all.

 

[Deleted member 1147]

I thought that at impact you should have the club head going down whilst pulling the handle upwards

 

[Maninblack4612]

Yes, all right, the clubhead comes from above the ball so it's a downward strike, but what I said was we shouldn't consciously​ hit down. The angle of attack is in a large part through having the hands ahead of the ball. I still say that it's made to look like a descending blow by the way the clubhead moves suddenly downwards at impact. Had the wedge shot not done this I'm sure the club would have just brushed the turf.

 

[Deleted member 1147]

Yes, all right, the clubhead comes from above the ball so it's a downward strike, but what I said was we shouldn't consciously​ hit down. The angle of attack is in a large part through having the hands ahead of the ball. I still say that it's made to look like a descending blow by the way the clubhead moves suddenly downwards at impact. Had the wedge shot not done this I'm sure the club would have just brushed the turf.

I’ve been taught that for a pitch shot not to try to take a divot. Like you say, to brush the turf with a flatter swing.
But not so much with a full iron shot.

 

[the_coach]

OP - if you remember some time a while back you had another thread on this kind of topic about the -AoA with irons & how you need to hit down with the irons

on that previous thread I was speaking to how & what the ball park areas of -AoA were through the irons in the bag & why gettin an optimum strike on the ball was not about continuing a steep or very 'downwards attack' into the ball/ground

& how an optimum AoA into the ball with an iron was not as much 'down' as folks tend to think

if you think around the ball park of -4º with a 6i/7i some folks will be a tad more down & some less down as the swing path also plays into how much the -AoA works - it's interconnected they are not 'separate' entities as the swing motion takes place in 3d (leaving time out of the equation for now to simplify stuff some)

seem to remember that your response then in that earlier thread to me saying "it's not as 'down' into impact" was then you being somewhat doubtful at the time - along with you saying you not quite getting the drift of what I was speaking to

(don't know if anyone has the time to search & find that thread as it might help some folks here a little if they are interested in the subject at all - currently I don't have time to write that explanation out again or to search for the relevant thread)

but basically think around the fact that the hands n'handle in the swing motion reach the lowest point in the swing arc approximately when they are opposite the trail thigh - from that 'point' they then continue forwards & inwards(or leftwards) & upwards in relation to any swing arc folks are on (path/swing direction) through impact - speaking to RH golfer

if you go back to basic physics - actions & opposite reactions

the hands/handle taking this forwards/inwards(or depending how you want to label it a tad 'leftwards') & upwards from them being opposite the trail thigh
(so basically this point being the so labelled 'delivery position' in the downswing or P6 when the shaft is aprox last horizontal to ground)

- this 'path' of the hands/handle into impact though ('opposite reactions' sends the shaft so clubhead then outwards towards the ball (ball/target line) & also downwards even though the hands/handle are no longer themselves traveling 'downwards' {clearing of the lead hip against a posted lead leg plus the continued body rotation along with this hand path means the approach into impact of the clubhead tends to shallow out or approach a kind of "flat-ish spot"

so some of the 'down' of the clubhead into impact is 'fairly minimum' if you look in terms of the 'small' number of degrees of down of the AoA of the clubhead into through impact from say a 2i to a sand wedge - with the length of the shaft meaning in standing further aways with a 2i that 'swing' is naturally goin to be of an overall 'shallower nature' to then standing closer with a SW through having a shorter shaft so the swing overall is naturally goin to be a 'tad steeper' - though the point about the lowest point of hands/handle being around opposite the trail thigh is true for all these swing motions

 

[garyinderry]

[video=youtube;6dG9hb3_blo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dG9hb3_blo[/video]

Here is a video of the clubface being deflected in different directions with toe heel low contact etc.

Sure the club gets deflected down somewhat but you have to believe larazaball was hitting down quite a bit to end up sticking the club so far into the dirt.

 

[bobmac]

This is a topic for the coach.

I wont bother then

 

[Jensen]

I wont bother then

And BobMac........

 

[Maninblack4612]

I wont bother then

I wish you would, I can understand you!

 

[Maninblack4612]

OP - if you remember some time a while back you had another thread on this kind of topic about the -AoA with irons & how you need to hit down with the irons

You've got a better memory than I have. I can't remember this.

 

[ScoopUK]

Sometimes concepts in sport are coached with exaggeration so you can visualise something and put it into action.

An example is when swimming front crawl you want to put your arm out straight but most beginners will actually 'cross over' spearing inwards. Coaches will often tell their swimmers to reach outwards (not what you actually want them to do) which has the effect of them reaching straight. The brain-body connection sometimes needs a bit of trickery.

That's why even top athletes have coaches, it's not because they don't know what they are doing, it's because they need someone to make sense of all the noise and act as a filter when someone puts stupid ideas out there or gets too sciency.

Sports scientists are hated in endurance sports, yet in golf many coaches seem to fancy themselves as sports scientists without training or qualification now they have access to lots of data. It is well known in other sports the scientists are pests as they tend to think of systems, not that there is human involved.

 

[hovis]

an iron should definitely be hit with a downward blow. however to get the club head to work down the handle has to move up. this happens naturally