Initial Handicap help - Women

[TheJezster]

Hi here,

Is anyone able to help me with something which is causing a bit of a headache..?

When someone is going for an initial handicap, do they HAVE to play from the reds? And if so why? Surely if they play from a measured course they can get an initial handicap cant they?

I ask because one of our new members played off the white tees and shot 4 over (3 under for the back 9) but it looks like she will be refused a handicap as she didn't play from the red tees.

I find this staggering, especially in this day an age. Surely this cant be accurate can it?

If any handicap secretary out there can help me I would be very grateful.

Please and thank you

 

[Deleted member 15344]

It depends on if the tee has been rated for both Male and female

The player can use any measured tee that has been rated for that relevant sex

So if there is only a rating for the ladies of the reds she must use that when gaining an initial HC

Is she returning to golf ? An ex pro ?

 

[TheJezster]

Shes American, first time HD over here.

Her golf over the last year or so has been nomadic.

I think she should be around 3 or 4, although shes easily capable of lower and will come down I would think

 

[rulefan]

As said above, she must play from tees rated for women. It may well be that your club has had the yellow tees rated for women.
I must admit I don't know of any clubs that have had longer tees rated for women unless they have hosted a big national event when the tees to be used are often a mixture of the men's tees.

Further, as it seems that she will end up as a Category 1 player, her initial handicap allocation will have to be confirmed by the County Association.

 

[TheJezster]

Thanks rulefan,

Is that a complicated process? So If I go out with her and mark 2 new cards off the reds how quickly will she get a handicap?

What is it they check etc?

Thanks in advance

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Thanks rulefan,

Is that a complicated process? So If I go out with her and mark 2 new cards off the reds how quickly will she get a handicap?

What is it they check etc?

Thanks in advance

She should also mention to the HC committee what her previous HC was when she was in the US

And it will take as long as the HC committee take to sort it out - if someone wants it sorted soon I normally ensured i picked the cards up - put them into the system straight away and if I needed county authority for Cat 1 it normally took at least a day

For a normal HC allocation it takes 5 mins to put the cards in and then the system to do the calculations- in your case it will need that extra County Aithority

I think your best bet would be to go and speak to someone from the HC committee or the main person who sorts the HC outs

 

[louise_a]

She will need 54 holes for an initial handicap, you should see if there is a separate ladies handicap secretary and speak to her.

 

[rulefan]

Is that a complicated process?
So If I go out with her and mark 2 new cards off the reds how quickly will she get a handicap?

No. She will need to put in scores for at least 54 holes. The club may have a requirement for more. These may be played over a combination of 9 hole and/or 18 hole rated tees. The player must be accompanied by a player acceptable to the committee. Usually a Member with a handicap.
The system will calculate the initial handicap but any hole scored as over double bogey will be automatically recorded as double bogey.
The manual says "The Handicap Committee must consider all the information available to it in relation to the player’s ability and any previously held handicap before allotment of a handicap. After due consideration, the Handicap Committee may allot a player an initial whole number Exact Handicap less than that calculated if it has reason to consider that a lower handicap is more appropriate to the player’s ability. In exceptional circumstances a higher handicap may be allotted than that indicated above."

 

[rosecott]

No. She will need to put in scores for at least 54 holes. The club may have a requirement for more. These may be played over a combination of 9 hole and/or 18 hole rated tees. The player must be accompanied by a player acceptable to the committee. Usually a Member with a handicap.
The system will calculate the initial handicap but any hole scored as over double bogey will be automatically recorded as double bogey.
The manual says "The Handicap Committee must consider all the information available to it in relation to the player’s ability and any previously held handicap before allotment of a handicap. After due consideration, the Handicap Committee may allot a player an initial whole number Exact Handicap less than that calculated if it has reason to consider that a lower handicap is more appropriate to the player’s ability. In exceptional circumstances a higher handicap may be allotted than that indicated above."

Surely the adjustment is now down to double par.

 

[rulefan]

Surely the adjustment is now down to double par.

Of course. Since the process is now handled by the software I had forgotten about the change. I should have quoted that bit also

"Adjust any score of more than double par at any hole to a score of double par (i.e. 6 on a Par 3, 8 on a Par 4 and 10 on a Par 5)."

 

[duncan mackie]

I would add that IMO the card initially discussed that has been presented should at least be considereal by the committee under the wider information element highlighted above.
In practice for a cat 1 allocation there won't be anything changed as as result but the principle is there!

 

[TheJezster]

She should also mention to the HC committee what her previous HC was when she was in the US

And it will take as long as the HC committee take to sort it out - if someone wants it sorted soon I normally ensured i picked the cards up - put them into the system straight away and if I needed county authority for Cat 1 it normally took at least a day

For a normal HC allocation it takes 5 mins to put the cards in and then the system to do the calculations- in your case it will need that extra County Aithority

I think your best bet would be to go and speak to someone from the HC committee or the main person who sorts the HC outs

Perfect, around 1 day, that's all I needed, cheers Phil.

Maybe things wont change on this occasion but maybe we can change it for the future. Seems stupid that we cant grant her a handicap because she played off the whites and not the reds.

 

[louise_a]

Perfect, around 1 day, that's all I needed, cheers Phil.

Maybe things wont change on this occasion but maybe we can change it for the future. Seems stupid that we cant grant her a handicap because she played off the whites and not the reds.

As stated earlier it is because the course off the whites is not rated for a ladies handicap. I cant see one unisex handicap being introduced to be honest.

 

[rulefan]

Seems stupid that we cant grant her a handicap because she played off the whites and not the reds.

The SSS assigned to the whites will have bee assessed on the standard physical attributes and playing performance of a male scratch player. A woman scratch player will be quite different.

eg the model male scratch hits a drive 250 yards, a female 210
the male fairway shot is 220, a female is 190
The difficulty factors for exiting a bunker vary by gender and depth.

A 6500 yard course would have a SSS of about 71/72 for men. For women it would be about 77/78
If your lady played the whites rated at 71 she would probably go round in 80 if she is a genuine 3 handicapper.
If she returned 3 cards on that course she would be allocated a handicap of 9 or so.

 

[duncan mackie]

Maybe things wont change on this occasion but maybe we can change it for the future. Seems stupid that we cant grant her a handicap because she played off the whites and not the reds.

Others have clarified the rating issue, but as raised before there's a wider issue in that a male 12 handicap isn't the same as a female one; in a match with a female with the same handicap as you, both playing from the same tees, there will be shots given to account for this.

 

[Foxholer]

As an aside, it would also be an appropriate time to have a discussion with the player about the differences between the US Handicap system and the UK one.

There are a significant number of significant differences and now would be the time to 'warn' her of, at least some of the, possible dangers that blissful ignorance can throw up!

 

[rulefan]

Until 2020

 

[Foxholer]

Until 2020

So are you suggesting that she be left to flounder around for the next couple of years?

 

[rulefan]

So are you suggesting that she be left to flounder around for the next couple of years?

Not at all. Although her handicap will continue through 2020 and beyond (with perhaps a slight adjustment). The handicap system itself will change considerably.

 

[Foxholer]

...The handicap system itself will change considerably.

Indeed it will! It'll change to something she is probably rather more familiar with! It might even allow her to play off whichever set of tees she wants and return a score that can/will contribute to her handicap (well, Index or equivalent)!

But in the meantime, she needs to be informed of, at least some of, the differences between the 2 systems. Otherwise it's likely that there will be further instances where a score (intended) to be used 'for handicap/Index' cannot be used!