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guest100718
Guest
If when looking for a ball in waist high rough a player tramples grass down in the area where he finds his ball, could this be construed as improving the area of intended swing?
palindromicbob
Tour Winner
If a ball is found and someone does a merry dance around it while identifying the ball or taking stance then that, in my eyes, would be a breech. Exactly the same as someone stepping down on a tuft of grass behind the ball in short rough.
May as well just buy this http://www.golfun.net/BigDaddyDriver.htm
May as well just buy this http://www.golfun.net/BigDaddyDriver.htm
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rulefan
Tour Winner
All the decisions appear to relate to situations where the location of the ball is known and the ball has been found.
It would seem that trampling during the search is ok but not after having found it.
However, if whilst trampling, the ball is trodden on or otherwise moved, then there is a problem.
It would seem that trampling during the search is ok but not after having found it.
However, if whilst trampling, the ball is trodden on or otherwise moved, then there is a problem.
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HawkeyeMS
Ryder Cup Winner
Yes in my book
Colin L
Tour Winner
In support of that, I would suggest that you cannot have an " intended swing" until you have found your ball.
Birchy
Money List Winner
You can trample to take your stance though cant you? Obviously not improving the lie of the ball at the same time etc.
rulefan
Tour Winner
You can certainly stand on the grass but Rule 13-2 specifically says:
A player must not improve or allow to be improved:
- the area of his intended stance or swing,
- moving, bending or breaking anything growing or fixed
Decision 13-2/1 has some guidance but I see this as the key.
An exception permits a player to do so in "fairly taking his stance."
in taking his stance for the selected stroke, the player should select the least intrusive course of action which results in the minimum improvement in the position or lie of the ball, area of intended stance or swing or line of play. The player is not entitled to a normal stance or swing. He must accommodate the situation in which the ball is found and take a stance as normal as the circumstances permit.
http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-13/#13-2/1
'Trampling' to me implies action without due regard to the above.
To beat down with the feet so as to crush, bruise, or destroy;
To tread heavily, roughly, or carelessly on or over
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guest100718
Guest
The grass was waist high and during the search lots of it got bent flat, not intentionally to improve the area of swing but it certainly did to some degree. It was only later that I wondered if it could be classed as a penalty.
rulefan
Tour Winner
I see no problem with that.
Colin L
Tour Winner
Just a further thought. If you were going to be penalised because you trampled down grass etc when searching, you would never be able to look for your ball in the first place.
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guest100718
Guest
Yeah it was just an after thought. I wouldn't have considered it to be a penalty but when you see the very long grass being bent down and allowing a much free-er swing than it would have been, it just got me wondering.
woody69
Journeyman Pro
Would be pretty harsh wouldn't it!
I wonder if the person would also be penalised if they realised that by bending the grass down it was potentially improving their stance/lie and then started to bend it back up straight? I guess technically that is bending it again thats interesting, heres a situation I had in last weeks medal and the action I took believing it to be acceptable and within the rules...
My ball was in the edge of this thigh high grass and immediately behind that was bramble bushes and trees...
to enable even aiming at the green (20yds away) I had to get behind the ball with my back at the bushes/trees..
I slowly took a swing to see if I could, I could take a shortish swing but a thorny bramble arm was scratching into my side pulling my shirt and scratching my left arm with thorns...
I moved it gingerly onto my back so I didnt get lacerated with swinging.........
should I have been penalised for fairly taking my stance?
rulefan
Tour Winner
To be honest, I would have to have been there to see it. From a distance and without a video, I can only refer you to the Decision above.
Colin L
Tour Winner
In that Decision, Darthvega, I would note the sentence "The player is not entitled to a normal stance or swing". As rulefan says, without seeing it it is impossible to judge, but I would hazard a guess that if you were able to take your stance and this bramble brand simply impeded your back swing you were not entitled to bend it and place it behind you. That's speculative of course without seeing.
what would happen if you were presented with this information after the event by the players and asked for a ruling? I'm assuming by your statement you would have to visit the area and/or see video?
Isn't the fact I moved a bramble stem out my way so I could take a stance without endangering myself with lacerations enough information to make a ruling?
Also taking the letter of the rule literally surely this means that even someone touching a branch or leaf of a tree while taking a stance and the said branch/twig/leave moves will be breaking the rules?
Harsh indeed if this is the case
Colin L
Tour Winner
I was seeing it that you were able to take your stance fairly and then the bramble branch impeded your backswing. If that's not the way it was and I have misread the scene, that just shows how wise rulefan was to avoid committing himself!
You can touch, bend and even break things in "fairly taking your stance". You may not bend and break things to make room for your backswing or stroke. If you read through Decision 13-2/1 from which rulefan quotes you will see this distinction illustrated.
In the end if the bramble or gorse or whatever sharp and prickly growth is threatening you is that bad, you may have to deem your ball unplayable. As long as you can identify the ball in the jungle, you can leave it and substitute another one.
You can touch, bend and even break things in "fairly taking your stance". You may not bend and break things to make room for your backswing or stroke. If you read through Decision 13-2/1 from which rulefan quotes you will see this distinction illustrated.
In the end if the bramble or gorse or whatever sharp and prickly growth is threatening you is that bad, you may have to deem your ball unplayable. As long as you can identify the ball in the jungle, you can leave it and substitute another one.
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rulefan
Tour Winner
Yes. I would expect the committee or chief referee to go and see the situation for real, even if a video was available.
As Colin says, Rule 28 is there for such eventualities. The rules do not give you an entitlement to a good stance or lie.
Also taking the letter of the rule literally surely this means that even someone touching a branch or leaf of a tree while taking a stance and the said branch/twig/leave moves will be breaking the rules?
Harsh indeed if this is the case
No. You simply may not move them from (say) one side of your body to the other simply to improve your swing path.
palindromicbob
Tour Winner
Check out the rules academy and then the video on play as it lies.
http://rulesacademy.randa.org/the-r...t-lies/#ooid=llNWpxYTrpc_SWM1uIABgUDwvEfQnhZx
About 1minute in you'll see an example of how to fairly take a stance and then what not to do.
http://rulesacademy.randa.org/the-r...t-lies/#ooid=llNWpxYTrpc_SWM1uIABgUDwvEfQnhZx
About 1minute in you'll see an example of how to fairly take a stance and then what not to do.
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it was stance not swing path, same rule I assume?
