I stood on my Ball

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

My ball is in deep rough - whilst looking for it I accidentally stand on it. I am 99.9% certain I did not not move it laterally (as it was buried deep) but I know I pressed it further down into the clart. Penalised?

 

[Colin L]

Yes. Replacing it needs a bit of thought as there will now be nothing for the ball to rest on at the same level as it was. It should therefore be placed in the nearest lie most similar to its previous lie, not nearer the hole and not more than a club length away.[Rule 20-3b]

 

[rosecott]

[h=2]18/1[/h] [h=4]Ball Moves Vertically Downwards[/h] Q.A ball lying in long grass slips vertically downwards. Or a ball is accidentally stepped on and pressed down, say a quarter of an inch, in the grass or into the ground. In each case, has the ball moved?

A.Yes, unless the ball returns to its original position. The direction of movement is immaterial.

 

[duncan mackie]

You moved it

You don't know exactly where it was; only possible exception to this is where you saw where it was and how it lay before you trod on it but were unable to stop you self treading on it (happens but let's put that to one side here).

IMO you are in 20-3c territory and should be dropping the ball...see note to 20-3b.

 

[Alucard]

My ball is in deep rough - whilst looking for it I accidentally stand on it. I am 99.9% certain I did not not move it laterally (as it was buried deep) but I know I pressed it further down into the clart. Penalised?

You did it wrong, you should have distracted your opponent and stood on his ball.

 

[delc]

My ball is in deep rough - whilst looking for it I accidentally stand on it. I am 99.9% certain I did not not move it laterally (as it was buried deep) but I know I pressed it further down into the clart. Penalised?

Yes. One stroke penalty and you must replace the ball. Rule 18-2. See also Rule 20.

 

[Colin L]

For goodness' sake, Del. Do you not notice that the question of the penalty has already been answered and that it has also been pointed out that you cannot replace the ball. Duncan has a different view from mine by saying that the ball should be dropped and I have yet to come to the defence of my initial view that the ball should be placed in a similar lie, but either way, the ball cannot be replaced.

 

[delc]

For goodness' sake, Del. Do you not notice that the question of the penalty has already been answered and that it has also been pointed out that you cannot replace the ball. Duncan has a different view from mine by saying that the ball should be dropped and I have yet to come to the defence of my initial view that the ball should be placed in a similar lie, but either way, the ball cannot be replaced.

Point covered by Rule 20-3.

 

[rulie]

For goodness' sake, Del. Do you not notice that the question of the penalty has already been answered and that it has also been pointed out that you cannot replace the ball. Duncan has a different view from mine by saying that the ball should be dropped and I have yet to come to the defence of my initial view that the ball should be placed in a similar lie, but either way, the ball cannot be replaced.

FWIW, in this instance where the player trod on his ball in long grass, I'd suggest he doesn't know either the spot or the lie, and the ball must be "replaced" by dropping. This "replacing" by dropping often happens in Rule 18-2 situations.

 

[Colin L]

My thinking (perhaps hasty) in saying the ball should be placed in a similar lie was that the ball did not move laterally and if it is clear that the ball would have been on the ground then the lie could be inferred from the ground immediately around the ball, the nearest similar lie being right beside the depression made by the ball being stood on. That all needs, however, the clarity that the ball would have been resting on the ground and not held up by thick grass and the OP did refer to the ball being well buried in deep rough. I agree that couldn't lead to the clarity I was thinking of and so a drop it is.

 

[Colin L]

Point covered by Rule 20-3.

Thank you, Del. I would never have guessed.

My point was that whether it is to be placed in a similar lie or dropped, the ball cannot be replaced.

 

[Hosel Fade]

This is the one that always gets me when people talk about which rules should be changed, if there were no penalty and you just had to replace/drop it are they worried of people taking the piss?

 

[duncan mackie]

This is the one that always gets me when people talk about which rules should be changed, if there were no penalty and you just had to replace/drop it are they worried of people taking the piss?

Not sure what point you are trying to make.

If you tread on my ball when searching there is no penalty; and as above I would simply drop it and get on with things.

If your point is does the rule exist to prevent players with a bad lie 'accidentially' to get free relief....the rule (18-2) is more fundamental than that, and this is simply an aspect of that rule.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Thanks for the clarifications, I was 99% sure it was a penalty but didn't know what to do next in respect of placing/replacing/dropping. Clear now.

 

[Hosel Fade]

Not sure what point you are trying to make.

If you tread on my ball when searching there is no penalty; and as above I would simply drop it and get on with things.

If your point is does the rule exist to prevent players with a bad lie 'accidentially' to get free relief....the rule (18-2) is more fundamental than that, and this is simply an aspect of that rule.

I'm saying why can't words to the effect of "in the process of searching for the ball" not be added to the list of exemptions under which you don't get penalized for causing your ball to move?

 

[duncan mackie]

I'm saying why can't words to the effect of "in the process of searching for the ball" not be added to the list of exemptions under which you don't get penalized for causing your ball to move?

Ah OK.

From my perspective that's an unnecessary complication that would, as we have both highlighted, also create a potentially tricky set of circumstances around both intent and the possibility of deliberate abuse.
The rules set out to avoid such situations wherever possible so it would be inconsistent to make such a change.
I would also highlight that the rules as they currently stand generally serve to avoid issues over 13-2 as well.
If you feel this is a tough rule, probably best not to read 12 - 1b !

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Ah OK.

From my perspective that's an unnecessary complication that would, as we have both highlighted, also create a potentially tricky set of circumstances around both intent and the possibility of deliberate abuse.
The rules set out to avoid such situations wherever possible so it would be inconsistent to make such a change.
I would also highlight that the rules as they currently stand generally serve to avoid issues over 13-2 as well.
If you feel this is a tough rule, probably best not to read 12 - 1b !

Indeed - there are many rules that seem stupid or overly harsh - however in general I find that I can usually fairly easily come up with a scenario that would enable 'foul play' to go unpunished were the rule not as it is.

There are plenty of situations when we can make use of the rules to our very distinct advantage - when indeed such an advantage might seem an 'unfair' or excessive advantage. See another thread on dropping - drop from a staked tree and drop in a valid position from where the ball is likely to end up on a path from which relief is given - take NPR from the path and drop away from it and you can be completely in the clear.

The rules are just a balance, we take the rough with the smooth and just accept the rough.

 

[delc]

Thank you, Del. I would never have guessed.

My point was that whether it is to be placed in a similar lie or dropped, the ball cannot be replaced.

You can replace the ball if that is still possible. If not, you place in the nearest equivalent lie, not nearer the hole. If the original position is not known or not determinable, then you drop the ball.

 

[Colin L]

Dearie me. The whole point here is that the OP stood on his ball, pressed it down into the ground and therefore could not replace it.

 

[rulie]

You can replace the ball if that is still possible. If not, you place in the nearest equivalent lie, not nearer the hole. If the original position is not known or not determinable, then you drop the ball.

If you do not know the spot or the lie, which you probably don't know as you are searching for the ball in high grass (as in the original post), then you must drop the ball. If you knew the spot or the lie precisely, then you would not have stepped on it.