I don't care if rules are rules, they need some discretion

You can take nearly every one of the rules out of the book and infringe it unintentionally and without gain or advantage. Where do you suggest the line is drawn?
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The natural question then is, why is the rule in there in the first place? Is it to deter players from cheating or is to make the game as difficult as it can possibly be by penalising errors that on their own would have no other consequence on the game or result?
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It's not a case of detering the cheat, it is there to penalise the act not the intention.

Same scenario as above, me vs you. (You are a honest bloke and I'm a 100% cheat)

You place your club behind the ball and it accidentally moves, in your view....no penalty.
I step up and pat my wedge down a few times behind the ball to clear away the grass a bit and make my lie better.....what now??
 
A very good point Robo, to suggest that Golf requires more rules due to the fact it is an everchanging field and is for the most part refereed by the players themselves who would benefit from a 'rule' for every situation is something I can relate to.

My issue is however that there are too many rules that have become steeped in the Golf culture and leaves little to allow for some discretion when there is no intent to improve ones score.

The incident with Poulter is an typical example of what I mean, there was a host of cameras, spectators and news media as witnesses, is it not possible that we all agree no intent to improve his lie was intended and therefore to fall back on a rule was in my humble opinion a travesty of an unbending culture to be inflexible.
 
A very good point Robo, to suggest that Golf requires more rules due to the fact it is an everchanging field and is for the most part refereed by the players themselves who would benefit from a 'rule' for every situation is something I can relate to.

My issue is however that there are too many rules that have become steeped in the Golf culture and leaves little to allow for some discretion when there is no intent to improve ones score.

The incident with Poulter is an typical example of what I mean, there was a host of cameras, spectators and news media as witnesses, is it not possible that we all agree no intent to improve his lie was intended and therefore to fall back on a rule was in my humble opinion a travesty of an unbending culture to be inflexible.
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As soon as you bring discretion into it you open up the chink of light for cheats and that is exactly what you are trying to avoid. When do you then draw the line and start calling a penalty, when it moves an inch?? 2 inches?? 2 feet??

Also, the same rules apply to me and you on a Saturday club knockout without the spectators and cameras to see wheter i was trying to gain an advantage.
 
Intent has nothing to do with - you never intend to break a rule (unless your a shredded wheat)....it was an accident and it was unfortunate that what he did moved the marker and cost him a penalty.....
 
A very good point Robo, to suggest that Golf requires more rules due to the fact it is an everchanging field and is for the most part refereed by the players themselves who would benefit from a 'rule' for every situation is something I can relate to.

My issue is however that there are too many rules that have become steeped in the Golf culture and leaves little to allow for some discretion when there is no intent to improve ones score.

The incident with Poulter is an typical example of what I mean, there was a host of cameras, spectators and news media as witnesses, is it not possible that we all agree no intent to improve his lie was intended and therefore to fall back on a rule was in my humble opinion a travesty of an unbending culture to be inflexible.
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As soon as you bring discretion into it you open up the chink of light for cheats and that is exactly what you are trying to avoid. When do you then draw the line and start calling a penalty, when it moves an inch?? 2 inches?? 2 feet??

Also, the same rules apply to me and you on a Saturday club knockout without the spectators and cameras to see wheter i was trying to gain an advantage.
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I don't think it matters how far it moves, as long as you admit it happened, your partners agree it was an accident, and put it back where it was.

Easier said than done to implement and word it as a rule of golf though.

At least his mates are sympathetic though. McIlroy suggested he might have a chance in the world tiddlywinks champs!
 
It seems to me that it is the rules that make the game of golf simple. Black and white, right and wrong; you can play golf anywhere in the World and with anyone, the rules are constant and not open to interpretation. Marvellous.
 
[I don't think it matters how far it moves, as long as you admit it happened, your partners agree it was an accident, and put it back where it was.
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And add a penalty shot for your troubles.....
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As it stands now, yes.

If golf had only just been invented and you were in charge of making the rules, would you have it as a penalty shot if it was accidental, you gained no advantage by it, and you knew where its original position was to replace it?
 
....... if it was accidental, .......
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Who would decide that though Gary??
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I know what you're saying, I'm just trying to think of an alternative to what I'd hope most people think was a harsh penalty.

I haven't seen it. Was there any mention of a possible penalty for 'testing the surface' as well?
 
It is harsh but to be honest the stick Poulter has been getting from Westwood GMac and McIlroy is harsher than penalty itself but bloody funny especially the future world tiddlywink comment.

It's one of those things and as others have said the rules are there to be adhered to. I like the fact that almost everyone I play with would call a penalty on themselves even if I was standing on the other side of the fairway and hadn't a hope in seeing what if anything went on. It's what makes the game unique and a pleasure to play. We all know that there are some rules that in this day and age seem plain daft but until the R&A rewrite and simplify the current set they're what we have to play to right or wrong
 
I don't think it matters how far it moves, as long as you admit it happened, your partners agree it was an accident, and put it back where it was.

Easier said than done to implement and word it as a rule of golf though.
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This is exactly the problem and why some people think (incorrectly imo) that there are too many and too complicated rules. You want flexibility and discretion so you have got to make up a rule to cover it and as you rightly say, it's easier said than done.
 
....... if it was accidental, .......
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Who would decide that though Gary??
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I know what you're saying, I'm just trying to think of an alternative to what I'd hope most people think was a harsh penalty.

I haven't seen it. Was there any mention of a possible penalty for 'testing the surface' as well?
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The problem is drawing the line between when it stops being accidental and being intentional...the way it is seems harsh but everyone (inc IP) knows where they stand....

Would you say it was ok not to hole out in a medal game if your ball was overhanging the hole and you were 'never' going to miss? The ball is either in the hole or it's not....the marker either moved or it didn't....it did, IP was a true Pro and a man and is dealing with it somewhere in the bottom of a beer bottle!!
 
I guess this situation does explain why the R&A don't make rule changes based on single incidents and in the heat of the moment.

Poults dropped his ball by accident and moved his marker. It's a freak event and will probably not happen again for another few years. So, the first question is "why change the rule?" for something so freak and rare.

If you answer that it is not rare, is too likely to happen again and can affect the result of rounds the next question would be "How do we change the rules?". Again, not easy. How would one know the drop was an accident? How can you be sure to replace the marker and hence the ball where it lay?
 
Ask Brian Davies about rules, he stood by them and lost a tournament I didn't notice Poulter calling a penalty upon himself. Correct me if I'm wrong of course.
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I will,you are.
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Don't forget in both these cases both Brits had lost the hole by the time the foul was called, there was no way Poults was going to sink the putt in one from that distance and Karlson wasn't going to miss.
Davies's shot again after playing from the hazard was a long way from the hole and his opponent had stiffed it for a shot less.
I believe that players are very aware of all the close camera work nowadays and expect some job's worth official to scrutinise the situation on video and call a foul as a couple of cases have shown this year, if they don't call it first
 
It's better that it happened to him at this event than on the final green of a major. I'm sure it's dissapointing for him, but he'll learn from this and accept it's freak event.
 
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