How close are we to a major war?

[Fish]

With the recent Malaysian aeroplane shot from the sky and the reluctance of Putin to act appropriately, and the strong feelings and clear, although unproven, observations that Russia is arming these separatists and even training them and that the SA-11, to which separatists who are delivery drivers and untrained rebel fighters would have no access to, and that the men in balaclava's are actually Russian troops, how far away are we from a major war, especially when so many innocent young lives were lost in such a hostile act and more so how Putin is simply putting his head in the sand and not coming out in any way to condemn the act! Bodies still litter the field along with personal affects, the black boxes are gone!

The word "cooperation" seems to be none existent in place of "lets hide any evidence we can ASAP"!

Sanctions, are they all that, is a country like Russia that bothered, does freezing it monies in European banks and restricting or stopping all international sanctions a real deterrent and a way to get cooperation, should we expel all Russian diplomats from our shores immediately? Is Russia acting like the school bully who thinks it can get away with as much as possible as the idea of a war is unthinkable.....or is it?

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Its a very very very delicate situation right now - Russia have been "re arming" themselves for a number of years now and have been waiting IMO to find the right time to flex their muscles.

Im not sure if war will happen but i also certainly wouldnt be writing off the chance of it happening - they are being school bullies against Ukraine - they have bullied their way to getting Crimea ( against international law ) and they are right now punishing Ukraine - i have no doubt that this attack was done by Pro Russian forces with help from Russia in the belief that they will be asked to go in and "help" Ukraine - sanctions are certianly the first step - hit them in the pocket ( which funds their military ) - Russia have grown again to be a very big player.

 

[Fish]

I find it amazing that some 3-days on there is little or no access to the site of the crash and these separatists are allowed to rule the roost their, surely some of our international leaders with the acceptance of the Ukraine government should allow us to go in and take those individuals out so a proper unhindered investigation can take place and also allow the bodies to be properly removed and taken to a suitable facility.

If Putin is looking for a fight, he's going the right way about it!

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I find it amazing that some 3-days on there is little or no access to the site of the crash and these separatists are allowed to rule the roost their, surely some of our international leaders with the acceptance of the Ukraine government should allow us to go in and take those individuals out so a proper unhindered investigation can take place and also allow the bodies to be properly removed and taken to a suitable facility.

If Putin is looking for a fight, he's going the right way about it!

Reporters are being allowed to go into some areas - they were showing the cockpit on the telly earlier - crash site is reported to be 5-10 miles wide - most of the evidence im going to guess has been removed or destroyed.

Nothing heard from USA - guess there were no US citizens on board

 

[Foxholer]

I find it amazing that some 3-days on there is little or no access to the site of the crash and these separatists are allowed to rule the roost their, surely some of our international leaders with the acceptance of the Ukraine government should allow us to go in and take those individuals out so a proper unhindered investigation can take place and also allow the bodies to be properly removed and taken to a suitable facility.

If Putin is looking for a fight, he's going the right way about it!

That's the attitude/approach that WILL cause a war! Though there's a civil war going on there already. Any investigation has been totally compromised by the delay - and almost certainly action - already!

Russia is welcome to Chernobyl btw!

 

[Dodger]

Miles away.

Nothing will come of this latest episode.

 

[MegaSteve]

Miles away.

Nothing will come of this latest episode.

^This....

We'll all be trotting off to Russia in four years as if nothing has happened ...

 

[SaintHacker]

The amount of gas we buy in from Russia there is no way we will risk upsetting them

 

[Old Skier]

Reporters are being allowed to go into some areas - they were showing the cockpit on the telly earlier - crash site is reported to be 5-10 miles wide - most of the evidence im going to guess has been removed or destroyed.

Nothing heard from USA - guess there were no US citizens on board

USA have been pressing for major sanctions against Russia ever since the Crimea fiasco, unfortunately Germany has been a major obstacle in this. Why should the USA operate on their own. Have you not noticed how quite China has been.

If your going to have ago at the big boys, you need all the big boys to back you.

I am interested in the statement that most of the militia are Russian, has anyone got any evidence of this. In these cases there will be a few "advisors" but I suspect the majority, looking at the poor discipline and ability, are just local thugs and militia who have been given some big toys to play with and scored a classic own goal.

 

[Old Skier]

The amount of gas we buy in from Russia there is no way we will risk upsetting them

Not as much as goes into Germany.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

USA have been pressing for major sanctions against Russia ever since the Crimea fiasco, unfortunately Germany has been a major obstacle in this. Why should the USA operate on their own. Have you not noticed how quite China has been.

If your going to have ago at the big boys, you need all the big boys to back you.

I am interested in the statement that most of the militia are Russian, has anyone got any evidence of this. In these cases there will be a few "advisors" but I suspect the majority, looking at the poor discipline and ability, are just local thugs and militia who have been given some big toys to play with and scored a classic own goall.

So far you can only go on what the official statements say.

You suspect its an own goal - then im sure someone will announce that soon - but i certainly wouldnt rule out involvement of Russiaand them being very much involved in the sepretists.

 

[Old Skier]

So far you can only go on what the official statements say.

You suspect its an own goal - then im sure someone will announce that soon - but i certainly wouldnt rule out involvement of Russiaand them being very much involved in the sepretists.

I'm not ruling them out and as all major countries use "advisors" in conflict zones I am just speculating that the majority of the forces on the ground supporting the "cause" are locals and not Russian military.

As to the likelihood of Russia, or, (highly unlikely) Ukraine owning up to an own goal - not a chance.

 

[Foxholer]

I'm not ruling them out and as all major countries use "advisors" in conflict zones I am just speculating that the majority of the forces on the ground supporting the "cause" are locals and not Russian military.

As to the likelihood of Russia, or, (highly unlikely) Ukraine owning up to an own goal - not a chance.

It's not often I agree 100% with Old Skier (or even anywhere 50% normally ) on this sort of topic, but in this instance I certainly do!

And it's concern about Gas supplies that will drive the West's approach! On this, Russia has the upper hand!

 

[Deleted member 18588]

I am interested in the statement that most of the militia are Russian, has anyone got any evidence of this. In these cases there will be a few "advisors" but I suspect the majority, looking at the poor discipline and ability, are just local thugs and militia who have been given some big toys to play with and scored a classic own goal.

The separatists are ethnic Russians living within the eastern portion of Ukraine. It is generally accepted that they are supported by the authorities in Russia.

 

[Old Skier]

The separatists are ethnic Russians living within the eastern portion of Ukraine. It is generally accepted that they are supported by the authorities in Russia.

Ok I can agree with that and my post may have been a little confusing but I still do not think that the separatist/militia that you see on the news are Russian military personnel.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

Ok I can agree with that and my post may have been a little confusing but I still do not think that the separatist/militia that you see on the news are Russian military personnel.

I would agree. Supplied and (slightly) trained by Russia but not actually Russian Forces.

 

[Fish]

I would agree. Supplied and (slightly) trained by Russia but not actually Russian Forces.

I personal think there are some scattered amongst them personally, the way they stand, hold their weapons in a less casual manner with the finger poised over the trigger housing, their total presence and the way their dressed more cleanly & neatly and of course, total anonymity with full face balaclava's gives me the impression that some are Russian soldiers.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Wouldnt count out Russian soldiers being in amongst them

 

[Old Skier]

I personal think there are some scattered amongst them personally, the way they stand, hold their weapons in a less casual manner with the finger poised over the trigger housing, their total presence and the way their dressed more cleanly & neatly and of course, total anonymity with full face balaclava's gives me the impression that some are Russian soldiers.

Or ex Ukrainian forces with loyalties to the separatist. Irrespective of that the majority look like the belong to the great unwashed.

 

[Foxholer]

The separatists are ethnic Russians living within the eastern portion of Ukraine. It is generally accepted that they are supported by the authorities in Russia.

Don't believe everything you read in the media! Quite possibly Russian oriented folk though. There are a couple of million Ukranians in Russia too!

Any real Russian soldiers/advisors would be well hidden from the news media!