Handicaps, SSS and CSS (again)

[HawkeyeMS]

I know this topic has been covered before but I played in a comp on Saturday, shot 2 over my handicap and went up .1. I didn't play badly by any stretch of the imagination. The main reason for playing over my handicap was because I was trying to be a bit clever shaping my driver to suit the hole and wasn't very successful. Apart from that, I played and hit the ball really well and +13 was about as bad as that round could ever have been.

However, because SSS is 71(1 under par) and CSS is generally the same number and was on Saturday, I was outside my buffer zone despite being only 2 over my handicap and went up. It's only 0.1 and I'm not concerned about it as I played well and but for a bit of experimentation could easily have got another cut but I still went up which got me thinking...

- I always thought a handicap was a level of my skill against par
- My original handicap was calculated against par
- My gross score is defined as some number over par
- Whenever anyone refers to their score it is in relation to par

...yet my handicap is adjusted against SSS\CSS. If the SSS means I should go round my course in 10 over par, why isn't my handicap 10 and not 11?

 

[Imurg]

Your handicap is related more to SSS than par. SSS is a rating of the difficulty of the course. So a SSS of 71 against a par of 72 means you should be able to play the course 1 under your handicap.
Your original handicap would have been calculated against SSS not par.
CSS is the movable feast that depends on scores from everyone else in the comp. If everyone else is playing well and CSS goes down then you should shoot lower too, hence being outside the buffer on this occasion.

 

[HughJars]

I know this topic has been covered before but I played in a comp on Saturday, shot 2 over my handicap and went up .1. I didn't play badly by any stretch of the imagination. The main reason for playing over my handicap was because I was trying to be a bit clever shaping my driver to suit the hole and wasn't very successful. Apart from that, I played and hit the ball really well and +13 was about as bad as that round could ever have been.

However, because SSS is 71(1 under par) and CSS is generally the same number and was on Saturday, I was outside my buffer zone despite being only 2 over my handicap and went up. It's only 0.1 and I'm not concerned about it as I played well and but for a bit of experimentation could easily have got another cut but I still went up which got me thinking...

- I always thought a handicap was a level of my skill against par
- My original handicap was calculated against par
- My gross score is defined as some number over par
- Whenever anyone refers to their score it is in relation to par

...yet my handicap is adjusted against SSS\CSS. If the SSS means I should go round my course in 10 over par, why isn't my handicap 10 and not 11?

1. You weren't 2 over your handicap, you were three, your handicap is assesed to SSS/CSS not par.

2.Your handicap is level of skill against the scratch score not par.

3.Your original handicap was calculated against the SSS, not par, unless they are the same, or your h'cap sec made a mistake

4. Your gross score in relation to par, is not your net score for handicap purposes though is it?

5. Yes people relate their score to par, unless they say 'nett xx', where they then look at he buffer to see whather they are cut, go up, or stay the same.

6. Your handicap is worked from the difficulty of the course for a scratch player, they may be expected to play it in one over, or one under, hence the SSS is used. If your handicap was solely based on the par of the course, then there would be no correlation of handicaps in different clubs. The SSS is meant to address that, which to a large extent it does.

 

[birdieman]

- I always thought a handicap was a level of my skill against par
- My original handicap was calculated against par
- My gross score is defined as some number over par
- Whenever anyone refers to their score it is in relation to par

To answer these 4 points.

No, your skill level is measured against SSS/CSS.

Your original handicap was calculated against SSS.

Your gross score is defined as the number of shots you took - 75, 84, 90 etc, par has nothing to do with it.

Some lower handicap players refer to their scores in relation to par i.e two under or two over etc but high handicappers don't refer to their score as 20 over or 25 over par, do they?



You've a 2 shot buffer as a category 2 player, you were 3 over CSS so got a 0.1. Whether you choose to start shaping tee shots hasn't really anything to do with it either. It's not how, it's how many!

 

[HawkeyeMS]

Thanks for the replies guys, I understand how the buffer works and how everything is calculated, I understand why I went up and I have no issues with that, there is just part of the whole system that doesn't make sense. (Also, point 3 could have been worded slightly better but it isn't important)

I play off 11 so I get 11 shots in a stableford. If I played a round of golf at my course and got bogeys on all the holes I get a shot at and pars at the ones I don't I have apparently played to my handicap and I score 36 points. However, because of the SSS, which you have all told me is what my handicap is based on, I have actually played one over my handicap. If however, playing off 11 I get bogeys on 10 of the holes I get a shot on and par all the other holes I have actually only used 10 of the 11 shots my handicap gives me, I have scored 37 points and because of the SSS, which is one less than par I have played to my handicap.

So if, based on the SSS my handicap is 11, why is it that I can only use 10 of the 11 shots I am given in order to play to my handicap. Surely if my handicap was really based on the SSS, I would be able to use all of my allocated shots?

I know it isn't important and makes no difference in the grand scheme of things as its the same for everyone, there just seems to be something that doesn't quite add up.

By the way, my initial handicap (9) I was told was based on my lowest scorecard which was a gross 81 on a par 72 (CSS 71). That's why I assumed obviously incorrectly my initial handicap was based on par.

 

[freddielong]

Dont get so caught up with what it is based on you get 11 shots, the SSS tries to take into account how hard your course plays in general, and the CSS tries to allow for the way the course was playing on the day.

So although you might get eleven shot the course might be playing easy based on other scores, it is calculated that you should break your handicap by two and should play to 9 over to play to your 11 handicap

 

[HughJars]

By the way, my initial handicap (9) I was told was based on my lowest scorecard which was a gross 81 on a par 72 (CSS 71). That's why I assumed obviously incorrectly my initial handicap was based on par.

You will have had a triple bogey in there, that got rounded down to a double.

Also, forget the stableford nonsense, your handicap is still to the CSS. As your SSS is one under par, to play to your handicap, you don't need 36 points, you need 37, someone playing a SSS 73 course (also par 72) would need only 35 points to play to their handicap in stableford.

Par is always irrelevant to your handicap, it's the SSS, and CSS that count.

 

[HRC99]

The use of SSS makes handicaps transferrable. Our course's SSS is bang on par off the whites but two shots easier off the yellows.

Wentworth has an SSS of 76 off the championship tees. If handicaps were against par then an 18 handicapper from Wentworth would be 3-4 shots better than someone from our course.

 

[HawkeyeMS]

The use of SSS makes handicaps transferrable. Our course's SSS is bang on par off the whites but two shots easier off the yellows.

Wentworth has an SSS of 76 off the championship tees. If handicaps were against par then an 18 handicapper from Wentworth would be 3-4 shots better than someone from our course.

Nonsense. Do you seriously believe the SSS means an 18 handicapper from Wentworth would be the same level as an 18 handicapper at your place or mine? If I played to 11 off the champ tees at Wentworth I'd expect to be knocking on the door of cat 1 round my place.

 

[HRC99]

The use of SSS makes handicaps transferrable. Our course's SSS is bang on par off the whites but two shots easier off the yellows.

Wentworth has an SSS of 76 off the championship tees. If handicaps were against par then an 18 handicapper from Wentworth would be 3-4 shots better than someone from our course.

Nonsense. Do you seriously believe the SSS means an 18 handicapper from Wentworth would be the same level as an 18 handicapper at your place or mine? If I played to 11 off the champ tees at Wentworth I'd expect to be knocking on the door of cat 1 round my place.

It might not make it exact but it makes it much closer than if par was the measure which is the point of SSS.

 

[Parmo]

HRC99 is correct. the CSS judges how well Cat 1 players do on the day and the CSS is adjusted so. Its the reason why at our course of Par 70 and SSS 65 we don't have many Cat 1 players because they have to shoot below par every round.

 

[RGDave]

Some lower handicap players refer to their scores in relation to par i.e two under or two over etc but high handicappers don't refer to their score as 20 over or 25 over par, do they?

I always did. Do I need therapy?

 

[RGDave]

The use of SSS makes handicaps transferrable. Our course's SSS is bang on par off the whites but two shots easier off the yellows.

Wentworth has an SSS of 76 off the championship tees. If handicaps were against par then an 18 handicapper from Wentworth would be 3-4 shots better than someone from our course.

Nonsense. Do you seriously believe the SSS means an 18 handicapper from Wentworth would be the same level as an 18 handicapper at your place or mine? If I played to 11 off the champ tees at Wentworth I'd expect to be knocking on the door of cat 1 round my place.

I love these threads, one of my favourite subjects.
In an ideal world, an 18 from Wentworth should be the same as an 18 from Small Lakes municipal Rotherham. The difference is that the 18 from Wentworth goes round in more shots on his home course to par. But it never works out this way, I agree.
I used to play a guy from one of the famous Lancashire courses; he and I pretty much had the same h'cap for years. I lost to him every time.
I think it is impossible for the current system to truly be accurate. Take my home course as an example. Someone shooting gross level par should play off 4 at least, yet someone playing to 20 (say) would probably manage to go round any other course in my town to 18, maybe 16 on a good day.
What am I saying? My course is easy, easy for a Scratch player who basically hits the ball straight. It's far from easy for high handicap players because there is trouble all over the place and if you can't "manage" the course, you are going to blow up all over the place.
I've yet to devise a system that can cover both ends of the spectrum....

 

[HawkeyeMS]

The use of SSS makes handicaps transferrable. Our course's SSS is bang on par off the whites but two shots easier off the yellows.

Wentworth has an SSS of 76 off the championship tees. If handicaps were against par then an 18 handicapper from Wentworth would be 3-4 shots better than someone from our course.

Nonsense. Do you seriously believe the SSS means an 18 handicapper from Wentworth would be the same level as an 18 handicapper at your place or mine? If I played to 11 off the champ tees at Wentworth I'd expect to be knocking on the door of cat 1 round my place.

It might not make it exact but it makes it much closer than if par was the measure which is the point of SSS.

It makes it a bit closer. A little bit. Playing on a 7200 yard course like Wentworth week in week out would in my opinion make you a better ball striker, more accurate and able to hit greens more regularly with longer irons. I imagine your short game would get pretty good too. A scratch golfer should play my course in 1 under but Wentworth in 4 or 5 over, that's 5 or 6 shots difference for a scratch golfer. As your handicap gets higher, that margin will increase by another couple of shots. There is no comparison between an 18 handicapper at Wentworth and one at my place. If you think SSS is an accurate measure of the difference between two courses when one is a Wentworth then I think you seriously misjudge how difficult these course are for us amateur golfers

 

[HRC99]

The use of SSS makes handicaps transferrable. Our course's SSS is bang on par off the whites but two shots easier off the yellows.

Wentworth has an SSS of 76 off the championship tees. If handicaps were against par then an 18 handicapper from Wentworth would be 3-4 shots better than someone from our course.

Nonsense. Do you seriously believe the SSS means an 18 handicapper from Wentworth would be the same level as an 18 handicapper at your place or mine? If I played to 11 off the champ tees at Wentworth I'd expect to be knocking on the door of cat 1 round my place.

It might not make it exact but it makes it much closer than if par was the measure which is the point of SSS.

It makes it a bit closer. A little bit. Playing on a 7200 yard course like Wentworth week in week out would in my opinion make you a better ball striker, more accurate and able to hit greens more regularly with longer irons. I imagine your short game would get pretty good too. A scratch golfer should play my course in 1 under but Wentworth in 4 or 5 over, that's 5 or 6 shots difference for a scratch golfer. As your handicap gets higher, that margin will increase by another couple of shots. There is no comparison between an 18 handicapper at Wentworth and one at my place. If you think SSS is an accurate measure of the difference between two courses when one is a Wentworth then I think you seriously misjudge how difficult these course are for us amateur golfers

Par for Wentworth off the Championship tees is 71 so your illustration may well actually be accurate.

But the point isn't the absolute accuracy of SSS from course to course rather that it is the important factor in determining handicaps which was the original question.

 

[HawkeyeMS]

Par for Wentworth off the Championship tees is 71 so your illustration may well actually be accurate.

But the point isn't the absolute accuracy of SSS from course to course rather that it is the important factor in determining handicaps which was the original question.

We did digress somewhat

 

[HRC99]

We did digress somewhat

You can't beat a good meandering thread

 

[GRAEMBO]

css at bellshill is generally always 2 under off the yellows, and 1 under off the whites.

there are alot of complaints about it at the club, and the previous handicap convener has suggested that we have one medal where no one can nr, just to see if that has an affect on the CSS

 

[HawkeyeMS]

css at bellshill is generally always 2 under off the yellows, and 1 under off the whites.

I thought CSS could only be in the range of -1 to +3 of SSS?

 

[viscount17]

css at bellshill is generally always 2 under off the yellows, and 1 under off the whites.

there are alot of complaints about it at the club, and the previous handicap convener has suggested that we have one medal where no one can nr, just to see if that has an affect on the CSS

it shouldn't have any effect on the css as that's based on the % of competing players (Cat 1 - 3) scoring SSS+2 or better.

(of course you can't check against the CONGU look-up table as you can't get it on-line - a bit stupid really but CONGU want paying)