Handicap reductions when soft cap activated

[DickInShorts]

I hit my soft cap last autumn and have been able to accurately calculate my increases since then at 50% as per the rules.

however yesterday i had a good round and my differential of 10.9 replaced a 15.9

5/8= 0.625 so I was expecting a drop from 14.9 to 14.3

My reduction was to 14.6 which is half

Surely the cap only applies on increases (as per Scottish Golf website)?

Anyone else come across this apparent bug?

 

[Banchory Buddha]

I haven't Dick but none of our members hit the soft (or hard) cap last year to find out. One for your h'cap sec, he's very clued up on the workings of VMS & WHS. (when did you move to Inverurie btw?)

 

[DickInShorts]

I haven't Dick but none of our members hit the soft (or hard) cap last year to find out. One for your h'cap sec, he's very clued up on the workings of VMS & WHS. (when did you move to Inverurie btw?)

Moved to Scotland in 2007 an joined Newmachar
Left Newmachar in 2014 joined Moray & Inverurie and left Moray at end of 2019.

Btw I had a good discussion with the Scottish Golf VMS guy at Inverurie yesterday - before my ‘cut’

 

[Steve Wilkes]

I hit my soft cap last autumn and have been able to accurately calculate my increases since then at 50% as per the rules.

however yesterday i had a good round and my differential of 10.9 replaced a 15.9

5/8= 0.625 so I was expecting a drop from 14.9 to 14.3

My reduction was to 14.6 which is half

Surely the cap only applies on increases (as per Scottish Golf website)?

Anyone else come across this apparent bug?

I might be wrong, but maybe 14.3 is still above the soft cap, so reduction will 50%

 

[wjemather]

I hit my soft cap last autumn and have been able to accurately calculate my increases since then at 50% as per the rules.

however yesterday i had a good round and my differential of 10.9 replaced a 15.9

5/8= 0.625 so I was expecting a drop from 14.9 to 14.3

My reduction was to 14.6 which is half

Surely the cap only applies on increases (as per Scottish Golf website)?

Anyone else come across this apparent bug?

Until your index is less than 3 higher than your Low Index, you will only see 50% movement above this in either direction.

 

[nickjdavis]

that doesn't seem right.

page 60 rule 5.8 only describes "limit on upward movement....." and specifically states that "there is no limit on the amount by which a players handicap index can decrease"

 

[Swango1980]

Surely it shouldn't matter what order you shoot scores, once the soft and hard caps are activated, it will still have an effect either way.

Basically, if his raw Index is more than 3 shots higher than his Low Index, and so any amount higher than the low Index +3 is simply halved. Then, if he submitted a good score, and his Raw Index is STILL more than 3 over his Low Index, the soft cap still has an impact. So, any value over Low Index + 3 would still be halved. So, it should still have an impact, as appears to be the case.

Take a simple exercise where the hard cap is activated. Low Index = 10, Raw Index = 20, Actual Index = 15. Imagine Slope=113 to also keep it easy, and all the best 8 scores were CR+20. The player then submits a round of CR+14, a lot better than his Index. New Values are Low Index = 10, Raw Index = 19.1, Actual Index = 15.

So, despite shooting a good score, the Index still does not change due to the Hard Cap. Obviously, it would be nice to present the figures for DickInShorts actual case, but I'd need to know the Low Index, 8 previous Score Differentials and the Latest one. So the above one was just a simplistic way to try and show that the Caps will still have an impact on the final calculated Index, until the Raw Index is not over the Cap limits.

 

[Genu9]

And WHS was supposed to simplify things. I read through it back in October 2020 and thought then, wow! How's this simpler. Then straight away GB&I elected not to use the (Course Rating - Par) part of the equation, so a disparity with the rest of the World already.

 

[DickInShorts]

All - Scottish Golf website makes no mention of decreases being affected by soft cap.

My handicap should be the average of my best 8/20 with increases above the soft cap being 50%

I understand the reason for this but there is no logic to stop me reducing my handicap as there is no limit on reductions

 

[nickjdavis]

It seems odd that, once you get into the realms of capping, if you suddenly find some form again, the system would limit how quickly you come down again.

The capping is supposed to limit the damage due to potential sandbagging, but in the other direction, if what DiS has seen is in fact correct, then it seems to favour someone who is quickly improving, by slowing the rate of his handicap reduction...giving him the potential to win more as his handicap fails to keep pace with his improvement!!! The mind boggles.

 

[wjemather]

All - Scottish Golf website makes no mention of decreases being affected by soft cap.

My handicap should be the average of my best 8/20 with increases above the soft cap being 50%

I understand the reason for this but there is no logic to stop me reducing my handicap as there is no limit on reductions

The rules describe an increase above the low handicap index rather than an increase from the most recent handicap index.

 

[Swango1980]

It seems odd that, once you get into the realms of capping, if you suddenly find some form again, the system would limit how quickly you come down again.

The capping is supposed to limit the damage due to potential sandbagging, but in the other direction, if what DiS has seen is in fact correct, then it seems to favour someone who is quickly improving, by slowing the rate of his handicap reduction...giving him the potential to win more as his handicap fails to keep pace with his improvement!!! The mind boggles.

Perhaps my post was less than clear (I flew threw it).

The process is simply based on your last 20 scores, plus your Low Index in last year. If your Unadjusted Index more than 3 over Low Index, the Soft Cap applies.

Now, one of those scores may be a very good score (in Dick's case, the latest one). However, that good score could just as easily been the 20th oldest one. Either way, the Index calculation will come to the same value, the Cap accounted for in both cases.

I think the confusion here is that you are focusing only on the latest score (like the old system), and because it is a good score believe the cap no longer applies? But, it does. Until the player submits enough scores to get back within 3 of the Low Index, or until that Low Index increases over the course of time.

There are other oddities outside this particular case, albeit more common. Such as occasionally submitting a good score under handicap and getting a handicap increase.

 

[DickInShorts]

Swango - the replaced differential of 15.9 was the 20th score.
You’re saying I am only going to reduce at half difference until I get under the soft cap - wow.

That surely gives me an advantage?

 

[Region3]

As far as I know (and I hit the soft cap last year and managed to work mine out correctly while it still applied) you do all the calculations re 8/20 and THEN apply the cap ie take away half of anything over soft cap.

 

[Swango1980]

Swango - the replaced differential of 15.9 was the 20th score.
You’re saying I am only going to reduce at half difference until I get under the soft cap - wow.

That surely gives me an advantage?

It doesn't give you an advantage. Remember, your current Index is already giving you a "disadvantage", as it is lower than the average of your best 8. It is lower because of the soft cap.

So, when you reduced your Index in your OP, you were subtracting a value from an already capped Index.

I can use my scores as an example, as I am actually above the soft cap.

My best 8 differentials are 11, 9, 10.2, 11, 9.4, 10.2, 9.4 and 9.4. That would give me an Index of 10.0.

However, my Low Index is 6.6, so my actual Index is 9.8 (I.e. the surplus over 9.6 is halved).

Now, I could go out and shoot a differential of 9.4 in my next round, which would replace the 11.0. Now, if I simply forget about the soft cap in first place, and say that is 1.6 lower than the one it replaces, then I might expect my handicap to drop 0.2 (1.6/8) to 9.6.

However, that would be wrong. If you take my 8 best differentials now, they give a raw Index of 9.8 (it was 10.0 before, so as expected it is now 0.2 lower). However, you got to remember soft cap, which still kicks in at 9.6. So, my actual Index would be 9.7.

 

[nickjdavis]

I get the logic....you are restricted on the way up, so you need to be restricted on the way down, so that your index reflects what it would have been if there was no capping system in place at all.

 

[Banchory Buddha]

I get the logic....you are restricted on the way up, so you need to be restricted on the way down, so that your index reflects what it would have been if there was no capping system in place at all.

That does make sense, because your handicap *should* actually be higher than it is because of the cap.

But as Dick says (and I read it yesterday as well) there is absolutely no mention of the cap applying to reductions.

 

[DickInShorts]

My soft cap is due to increase slightly next month. ( I had a major health issue last July)

Does this mean my handicap will change without me playing?

 

[Swango1980]

I hit my soft cap last autumn and have been able to accurately calculate my increases since then at 50% as per the rules.

however yesterday i had a good round and my differential of 10.9 replaced a 15.9

5/8= 0.625 so I was expecting a drop from 14.9 to 14.3

My reduction was to 14.6 which is half

Surely the cap only applies on increases (as per Scottish Golf website)?

Anyone else come across this apparent bug?

Going back to your original numbers, it would be easier to explain with certainty if we knew your Low Index and 8 best Score Differentials.

However, let us say your Low Index was 11.3. Therefore, your soft cap would kick in when your Avg Score Differential was 14.3.

Before your differential of 10.9 replaced 15.9, your average Score Differential may then have been 15.5. Therefore, your Index would be reduced to 14.9 due to the soft cap.

Then you shoot a differential of 10.9, which replaces a 15.9. Therefore, your average Score Differential falls from 15.5 to 14.9 (that would be the 0.625 drop you were expecting). However, the 14.9 is STILL higher than the 14.3 soft cap limit. So, your Index is not 14.9. but it is 14.6.

I've just glanced at the Scottish website. Not sure if we are looking at the same bit, but I read "The soft cap suppresses upward movement when the difference between the new calculated Index and the Low Index is greater than 3". That seems to be exactly what is going on. But, you seem to be interpreting it incorrectly, as you are comparing your latest score differential with your previous Index (neither of which are mentioned in the Scottish Golf website that I can see)

 

[Swango1980]

My soft cap is due to increase slightly next month. ( I had a major health issue last July)

Does this mean my handicap will change without me playing?

No. However, once you submit another acceptable score, the Low Index is then re-evaluated.