Gravel Ditch

[Deleted member 16999]

Played in the County Spring Salver today and a FC in our 3 Ball hooked his drive towards a parellel hole, when we found his ball it was lying in a gravel/shale ditch, approx 2"ft wide by 5 yards long it ran along the side of the Tee box was level with the grass, it had no markings around it, he said as it was man made he was allowed a free drop, nothing on the card and no excuse but I couldn't be bothered with him as he was miserable, late in the round and he had a poor card, played on my mind a bit, was he correct or should I have said something?

 

[duncan mackie]

Unless the local rules say anything to the contrary then he's going to be entitled to relief and the issue then becomes where...

 

[williamalex1]

Sounds like a drainage ditch, free drop I would think.

 

[Foxholer]

A 'Ditch' or 'Drainage Ditch' is a Water Hazard!

From the Definitions.....

A "water hazard" is any sea, lake, pond, river, ditch, surface drainage ditch or other open water course (whether or not containing water) and anything of a similar nature on the course. All ground and water within the margin of a water hazard are part of the water hazard.

....

 

[williamalex1]

A 'Ditch' or 'Drainage Ditch' is a Water Hazard!

From the Definitions.....

A "water hazard" is any sea, lake, pond, river, ditch, surface drainage ditch or other open water course (whether or not containing water) and anything of a similar nature on the course. All ground and water within the margin of a water hazard are part of the water hazard.

....

No markers indicating that it's a W/H

 

[atticusfinch]

No markers indicating that it's a W/H

In the absence of markings, the feature is defined by its nature and whether it is named in the rule.

So the question becomes is it a drainage ditch? Usually you'd have to see it.

 

[Smiffy]

No markers indicating that it's a W/H

If there were no markers, I would have given him a drop.

 

[rulefan]

It appears to be of a similar construction to a french drain. They have been ruled by the R&A and USGA to be Immovable Obstructions and therefore provide free relief.

They are not water hazards as they are not considered to be an 'open' water course.

The USGA in fact recommend that they should actually be marked as GUR as (they say) players would better understand that they have relief.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Cheers guys, definitely no markings around it, butted up next to the Tee box, as said, level with not below grass, looked like a soak away as Tee box was middle of slope and this would protect Tee box.

 

[Foxholer]

No markers indicating that it's a W/H

While I did not quote the entire Definition, there is nothing in the rest of it that requires a WH to be marked! So to simply say that if it is not marked, then it is not a WH is invalid! I've often seen (unmarked) drainage ditches in tree areas that are still drainage ditches!

 

[williamalex1]

While I did not quote the entire Definition, there is nothing in the rest of it that requires a WH to be marked! So to simply say that if it is not marked, then it is not a WH is invalid! I've often seen (unmarked) drainage ditches in tree areas that are still drainage ditches!

See post 8.

 

[rulefan]

While I did not quote the entire Definition, there is nothing in the rest of it that requires a WH to be marked! So to simply say that if it is not marked, then it is not a WH is invalid! I've often seen (unmarked) drainage ditches in tree areas that are still drainage ditches!

An open drainage ditch is a water hazard whether marked or not.

 

[Fish]

An open drainage ditch is a water hazard whether marked or not.

and if not marked in anyway you get free relief?

 

[Foxholer]

and if not marked in anyway you get free relief?

Did the 'whether marked or not' part of the reply not explain it?

PS. The answer to your question is 'No!'. That was the point of my earlier post.

See post 8.

I did! That doesn't change the purpose/validity of my statement!

 

[Colin L]

You just don’t get free relief from a water hazard whether marked or unmarked.

 

[Fish]

Did the 'whether marked or not' part of the reply not explain it?

PS. The answer to your question is 'No!'. That was the point of my post

Obviously not, otherwise I wouldn't have asked, why not just answer the question rather than acting like a complete tool, as always, this thread has swayed from 1 thing to another, 1 minute its a ditch then a drainage ditch and free relief is OK then it's an open ditch which then becomes a water hazard, which I always see marked with posts, so with all the confusion and various comments, it was a simple yes/no answer to my question!

 

[williamalex1]

Did the 'whether marked or not' part of the reply not explain it?

PS. The answer to your question is 'No!'. That was the point of my earlier post.



I did! That doesn't change the purpose/validity of my statement!

So if the green staff decide to dig small a drain/track/ditch and fill it with gravel as in post 1, are you saying it automatically becomes a water hazard?

 

[williamalex1]

So if the green staff decide to dig small a drain/track/ditch and fill it with gravel as in post 1, are you saying it automatically becomes a water hazard?

Edit -as its not an OPEN drain/ditch.

 

[Fish]

So if the green staff decide to dig small a drain/track/ditch and fill it with gravel as in post 1, are you saying it automatically becomes a water hazard?

Edit -as its not an OPEN drain/ditch.

Thank you, this is why I got confused, and still am to a degree, the thread morphed from 1 thing to another, it's almost a case of, "when is a water hazard not a water hazard, when its a ditch", but is that ditch open or not as it's simply a ditch with gravel in it!

 

[Smiffy]

If there were no markers, I would have given him a drop