Gravel Ditch

[Foxholer]

Here's the Definition of 'Water Hazard' from The Rules.

Note that there's no mention of 'Open'. As there's also no mention of any requirement to mark, via lines or stakes.

<Start Definition>
Water Hazard

A "water hazard" is any sea, lake, pond, river, ditch, surface drainage ditch or other open water course (whether or not containing water) and anything of a similar nature on the course. All ground and water within the margin of a water hazard are part of the water hazard.

When the margin of a water hazard is defined by stakes, the stakes are inside the water hazard, and the margin of the hazard is defined by the nearest outside points of the stakes at ground level. When both stakes and lines are used to indicate a water hazard, the stakes identify the hazard and the lines define the hazard margin. When the margin of a water hazard is defined by a line on the ground, the line itself is in the water hazard. The margin of a water hazard extends vertically upwards and downwards.

A ball is in a water hazard when it lies in or any part of it touches the water hazard.

Stakes used to define the margin of or identify a water hazard are obstructions.

Note 1: Stakes or lines used to define the margin of or identify a water hazard must be yellow.

Note 2: The Committee may make a Local Rule prohibiting play from an environmentally-sensitive area defined as a water hazard.
<End Definition>

As for this particular query (the ditch filled with gravel)...AF has posted that it would likely have to be seen to be ruled upon. Rulefan has posted that the description seems like a French Drain (had some experience of those after some dodgy builders!) that has been ruled as 'not a WH' but there doesn't seem to be a related decision - and probably won't be as that might cause more hassle than it solves!

Seems to me that 'The Committee' has/had an obligation to define (and preferably mark) them one way or the other! A very experienced Ref once advised me to check with the Green-keepers had done any drainage work a couple of days before any comp to see whether any marking needed to be done! That had the benefit of no issues about marking the area around a Stump Shredder that had fallen into the hole of a pulled tree as GUR for a couple of weeks!

And @Fish...Your question "when is a water hazard not a water hazard, when its a ditch", though not worded quite the best (a water hazard is always a water hazard'!) is the entire nub of the thread! The answer could vary between 'Always' and, according to Rulefan, 'not if it's a French Drain'.

Shows the benefit of a couple of tins of spray paint!

 

[williamalex1]

Here's the Definition of 'Water Hazard' from The Rules.

Note that there's no mention of 'Open'. As there's also no mention of any requirement to mark, via lines or stakes.

<Start Definition>
Water Hazard

A "water hazard" is any sea, lake, pond, river, ditch, surface drainage ditch or other open water course (whether or not containing water) and anything of a similar nature on the course. All ground and water within the margin of a water hazard are part of the water hazard.

When the margin of a water hazard is defined by stakes, the stakes are inside the water hazard, and the margin of the hazard is defined by the nearest outside points of the stakes at ground level. When both stakes and lines are used to indicate a water hazard, the stakes identify the hazard and the lines define the hazard margin. When the margin of a water hazard is defined by a line on the ground, the line itself is in the water hazard. The margin of a water hazard extends vertically upwards and downwards.

A ball is in a water hazard when it lies in or any part of it touches the water hazard.

Stakes used to define the margin of or identify a water hazard are obstructions.

Note 1: Stakes or lines used to define the margin of or identify a water hazard must be yellow.

Note 2: The Committee may make a Local Rule prohibiting play from an environmentally-sensitive area defined as a water hazard.
<End Definition>

As for this particular query (the ditch filled with gravel)...AF has posted that it would likely have to be seen to be ruled upon. Rulefan has posted that the description seems like a French Drain (had some experience of those after some dodgy builders!) that has been ruled as 'not a WH' but there doesn't seem to be a related decision - and probably won't be as that might cause more hassle than it solves!

Seems to me that 'The Committee' has/had an obligation to define (and preferably mark) them one way or the other! A very experienced Ref once advised me to check with the Green-keepers had done any drainage work a couple of days before any comp to see whether any marking needed to be done! That had the benefit of no issues about marking the area around a Stump Shredder that had fallen into the hole of a pulled tree as GUR for a couple of weeks!

And @Fish...Your question "when is a water hazard not a water hazard, when its a ditch", though not worded quite the best (a water hazard is always a water hazard'!) is the entire nub of the thread! The answer could vary between 'Always' and, according to Rulefan, 'not if it's a French Drain'.

Shows the benefit of a couple of tins of spray paint!

Thanks for that , but, was the player in post 1 allowed a free drop ?. Yes or No.:thup:

 

[Foxholer]

Thanks for that , but, was the player in post 1 allowed a free drop ?. Yes or No.:thup:

Usual solution....It depends!

 

[williamalex1]

Usual solution....It depends!

Foxy , you should stand for Parliament .

 

[rulefan]

Here's the Definition of 'Water Hazard' from The Rules.

Note that there's no mention of 'Open'. As there's also no mention of any requirement to mark, via lines or stakes.

<Start Definition>
Water Hazard

A "water hazard" is any sea, lake, pond, river, ditch, surface drainage ditch or other open water course (whether or not containing water) and anything of a similar nature on the course. [/QUOTE]

A french drain is a ditch filled with pebbles or gravel. Because it is filled the RBs have determined that it is not 'open'. By which they mean the water (if present) is exposed to the air above. They have said that therefore it is not a water hazard.
As a french drain is deemed to be an artificial construction it is an Immovable Obstruction.

Because the absence of markings may lead to confusion the USGA recommend it is marked as and declared to be GUR which effectively give the same relief.

 

[Val]

As already said on more than one occasion if it's filled with pebbles it's not a ditch it's a French drain which would entitle you to free relief

 

[woody69]

It appears to be of a similar construction to a french drain. They have been ruled by the R&A and USGA to be Immovable Obstructions and therefore provide free relief.

They are not water hazards as they are not considered to be an 'open' water course.

The USGA in fact recommend that they should actually be marked as GUR as (they say) players would better understand that they have relief.

I'm confused, where in the rules/decisions does it mention a French drain being immovable obstruction. How would someone know if they were entitled to free relief from this or not in the absence of a local rule? I would assume it would either be a water hazard or simply unplayable. I'd never consider it to a situation where I'd be entitled to free relief

 

[williamalex1]

As already said on more than one occasion if it's filled with pebbles it's not a ditch it's a French drain which would entitle you to free relief

Oui :smirk:

 

[rulefan]

I'm confused, where in the rules/decisions does it mention a French drain being immovable obstruction.

Why should it? Do you expect all obstructions to be listed?
The definitions say it all. As it has been constructed it is an Immovable Obstruction. It cannot be a Water Hazard as it is not an open water course.

PERHAPS I SHOULD SHOUT LOUDER

Extract from correspondence from the R&A.
"French drains are artificial and they therefore, fall into the category of an immovable obstruction. The USGA and The R&A would agree on this. This, in effect, means that there is no need for the Committee to classify such drains as ground under repair, however, as most golfers generally tend to understand what GUR means and the implications for relief more than they do obstructions, a Committee would be permitted to class them as GUR in the Local Rules if they so wished.
It is therefore, at the discretion of the Committee in charge, to decide which option is best suited to the course.

 

[woody69]

Why should it? Do you expect all obstructions to be listed?
The definitions say it all. As it has been constructed it is an Immovable Obstruction. It cannot be a Water Hazard as it is not an open water course.

PERHAPS I SHOULD SHOUT LOUDER

Extract from correspondence from the R&A.
"French drains are artificial and they therefore, fall into the category of an immovable obstruction. The USGA and The R&A would agree on this. This, in effect, means that there is no need for the Committee to classify such drains as ground under repair, however, as most golfers generally tend to understand what GUR means and the implications for relief more than they do obstructions, a Committee would be permitted to class them as GUR in the Local Rules if they so wished.
It is therefore, at the discretion of the Committee in charge, to decide which option is best suited to the course.

Shouting louder isn't required. I was merely making a point that as a weekend golfer if my ball landed in a ditch that had gravel in it I wouldn't immediately assume I was entitled to free relief, let alone be able to identify it as a French drain (but that's besides the point). Show a picture I'd be surprised if many people would call it a French drain and thus know they are entitled to relief.

As you well know an obstruction is anything artificial, including the artificial surfaces and sides of roads and paths and manufactured ice. I see nothing in the definition about it having been "constructed" though?

It could be perfectly reasonable for a player to assume it was a water hazard that was empty and had a gravel bottom (depending on the depth of the ditch surrounding it).

All I was saying is I think the club should have a LR on the card to assist the players in this situation and avoid confusion. I'm not questioning the validity of your answer.

 

[rulefan]

If players see an area of gravel or stones don't they normally assume it would be either an immovable obstruction or possibly GUR? Unless the stones are fairly well below the level of the surrounding ground why would they suspect it was a water hazard? Players will always look for the free relief way out.

 

[louise_a]

I had a very similar thing happen yesterday, my ball finished next to a narrow ditch about a foot across and a foot deep, running alongside the rough the bottom was covered in small white stones, I wasn't sure whether of not I got relief, my partner said I did but I wasn't sure. As he was on the green in 2 and I had already taken 2 shots, it didn't really matter that time but could in future.
It does seem open to interpretation depending on what is in the ditch, we have them on our course but they do not contain stones or gravel.

 

[backwoodsman]

I think folks are over-interpretting this one. Just think in your own mind as to what is a ditch? It's an open trench in the ground along the bottom of which water flows for the purposes of drainage. If it is filled with gravel (and note i say filled, and not part filled, half filled or nearly filled) then it is not a ditch any more. And therefore not a water hazard. If it is deliberately filled with gravel, then it is an artificial construction

For example, we have (or had) a ditch crossing the fairway of our 11th. We just chucked a pipe in the bottom of it, covered it with gravel, then a bit of soil, and some grass seed. There's still water flowing through it. Is it still a water hazard? Of course it isn't. Just because something has, or could have, water flowing underneath it doesn't mean it's a water hazard.

 

[Foxholer]

Oui :smirk:

Non! It was a Mr French that described them!

And @Rulefan, thanks for the, somewhat protracted, explanation/definition. By categorising a French Drain as 'not open', it automatically 'fails' the test for a Water Hazard. Providing (no need to shout) that note from R&A also explains it - and the fact that the note has been issued indicates that there have been similar queries in the past! It does make sense/seem helpful, at least to me, to either publish a notice (or a note on the scorecard) to this effect.

The only question I'd have on this is when a French Drain - that is 'filled'with gravel - becomes an 'open' ditch that is almost, but not totally filled with gravel! For that reason alone, I'd go with the USGA recommendation of marking them as GUR!

It seems to me that many queries/misunderstandings could be prevented by sensible notifications, even if they are not absolutely necessary!

 

[williamalex1]

Non! It was a Mr French that described them!

And @Rulefan, thanks for the, somewhat protracted, explanation/definition. By categorising a French Drain as 'not open', it automatically 'fails' the test for a Water Hazard. Providing (no need to shout) that note from R&A also explains it - and the fact that the note has been issued indicates that there have been similar queries in the past! It does make sense/seem helpful, at least to me, to either publish a notice (or a note on the scorecard) to this effect.

The only question I'd have on this is when a French Drain - that is 'filled'with gravel - becomes an 'open' ditch that is almost, but not totally filled with gravel! For that reason alone, I'd go with the USGA recommendation of marking them as GUR!

It seems to me that many queries/misunderstandings could be prevented by sensible notifications, even if they are not absolutely necessary!

Merci beaucoup Foxy

 

[Foxholer]

Merci beaucoup Foxy

Not particularly francophile, but this has become one of my favourites, from my favourite singer - explaining my avatar and (parrot) head cover!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81le-Dnc-UY