GM Spike Bar-Debate.

[HomerJSimpson]

I think there is a market for the 20 and 30 somethings. A lot of the people i teach and speak with are in this age range and would love to join a club but can't afford it. They play a few times in the summer months but finances restrict their membership options.

Why not. Most would (should) be in gainful employment. OK granted I know there are redundancies across the board out there but in that case joining a golf club wouldn't be high on my list of priorities anyway.

Most 20-30's will have done uni, got a job and moved away from parents. I accept that a lot of clubs still have joining fees (especially around my area) but even these are coming down and variable payment plans being offered. If you have other committments (family etc) and a limited budget then I'm afraid the harsh reality is you can only make money go so far. Joining a golf club is a luxury and if you can't afford to do so at the moment then either play P&P as much as you can, look at 5 day (cheaper and you can still get a round in every weekday night in the summer) or save.

Blunt but realistic. I was made redundant about 4 years ago and really struggled to find the money but evenutally went onto monthly DD for a year and begged and borrowed enough to get by until I got a job again. The club wouldn't hold a place open (and why should they) and there was a chance I'd have to start from scratch if I left and rejoined including a % of the joining fee which is why I didn't want to lose my membership and did everything I could to keep it.

As I had a lot of time to play in the early summer too the handicap dropped and I won a few medals so every cloud and all that.

 

[RichardC]

But what happens to the 35-40 year old that wants to play, but cannot afford the subs for one full price membership?

 

[HomerJSimpson]

But what happens to the 35-40 year old that wants to play, but cannot afford the subs for one full price membership?

Interesting point and sadly the answer would seem to be that they aren't catered for. It does seem to be a harsh reality that you join as either 5 or 7 day or not at all and are expected to pay green fees to satisfy the golfing cravings.

I don't think subsidies for that age bracket are fair. No offence but why should I fork out my £1300 aged 40 and you get a % discount based purely on your age and being five years younger. As I said, joining any golf club is a luxury and so if needs to be balanced up against what else is important in your life.

I think my club is offering a limited form of membership this year where you can play something like 12 times per year (including comps - but not honours boards events - with an active handicap) but don't get voting rights etc. Once your 12 rounds are done you can get a green fee at members guest rate. I know one member who was made redundant and has gone onto it. Not sure if it is being offered to prospecitve members or is just a way of keeping those it has who are struggling.

 

[AuburnWarrior]

young guys are the life blood of any club.

Are they though??? I'm 36 so probably well out of the 'young' camp but of the two golf clubs that I've been a member of and the countless clubs I've encountered, it's the older members who keep them going. Why??? Because they have the time.

I'd love to be the 'life blood' of my club but my Wife, children and job ensure that I can't be. The older members can be though because, by and large, they've retired and their children have grown up.

Also, there's no guarantee that I'll be a member of my club next year - there's too many indeterminables. Will the older member be there next year??? Judging by the number of older members at my place who paid for five years membership, I'd say yes.

 

[RichardC]

But what happens to the 35-40 year old that wants to play, but cannot afford the subs for one full price membership?

Interesting point and sadly the answer would seem to be that they aren't catered for. It does seem to be a harsh reality that you join as either 5 or 7 day or not at all and are expected to pay green fees to satisfy the golfing cravings.

I don't think subsidies for that age bracket are fair. No offence but why should I fork out my £1300 aged 40 and you get a % discount based purely on your age and being five years younger. As I said, joining any golf club is a luxury and so if needs to be balanced up against what else is important in your life.

I think my club is offering a limited form of membership this year where you can play something like 12 times per year (including comps - but not honours boards events - with an active handicap) but don't get voting rights etc. Once your 12 rounds are done you can get a green fee at members guest rate. I know one member who was made redundant and has gone onto it. Not sure if it is being offered to prospecitve members or is just a way of keeping those it has who are struggling.

I agree, but I know more 35-40 year olds that want to take up the game than 20 somethings.

I think that juniors should be helped so that they can remain as members, but to offer e.g half price to just 20-30 year olds will be a quick fix as they will probably end up having kids and then realise that they can't afford it, even at a discounted price.

 

[IM01]

Good topic..

Trying to keep Jnr members has always been a problem and not just a recent one.Most Jnrs start because a family member plays,maybe even take a mate along to play with.If you become good at the game you'll probably stick with it(regardless of the cost)but the majority drift away and play other sports/interests then later in life maybe return to the game.
I don't think reduced memberships will hugely change this but I don't have a problem with clubs offering it.As has been said the core membership is 40+
I would probably have made a stipulation that if you become a member you have to remain a member to qualify for the next pricing range until you reach full membership.

 

[fundy]

Is this really as progressive as the thinking gets on here (or as progressive as it gets for most clubs)?

Most on here, and clubs, are guessing as to who can and cant pay and will and wont pay what? No commissioning of research, no thinking outside the box etc

If I ran a club Id get some research done (it prob already exists). Then Id structure various membership categories ranging from 7 day full membership unlimited all the way down to membership incl 1 round per month (the only age discrepancies would be upto 3 years after full time education), with a large proportion likely to be on a credits based memebrship scheme, though with the right research Id look at long term members benefits.

Id be looking to make sure members contribute to the club in addtion to fees, whether it be bar, restaurant and/or shop as well as to addressing the balance between members and guests contributions (if you dont want socieities then your gonna pay for it in fees!)

I just think 99% of clubs are so far behind the times that they havent properly considered the impact of the structure of their current membership, or the fee structure on their future membership (and in some cases the feasibility of their clubs!).

The sad fact of it all is the current financial climate is gonna severely reduce the amout of money a lot of people can spend on luxury items, of which golf is ultimately one. The other big problem most golf clubs have is that nearly every decision maker is 50+ years old and in a lot of cases, has very little idea of the challenges facing those younger than themselves.

Too many of them are treated as old style members clubs, whereas they need to be treated as quasi businesses if they are to ensure their longevity, the sad thing being most of them will only realise this when its too late.

 

[John_Findlay]

Dodger, I think you've got the wrong end of the stick.

You said "If it was discrimination it would not be lawful!!!" Frankly, That's bollocks. It's perfectly legal to discriminate on the grounds of age in certain circumstances. People do it every day. It's only when it's prohibited by statute that it's unlawful. Golf clubs are discriminating on the grounds of age now, perfectly legally, and that's what Fergus is saying in his article. In fact the Equality Act actively mentions it will continue to be the case for golf clubs for at least a while. Fergus didn't say it was illegal. Just that it shouldn't be the case. There's a difference. Your gripe doesn't hold water, mate. It was a magazine debate. Not much point in both sides agreeing.

Calm down, calm down.

Anyway, once legislation comes in making it illegal (and it will) it will be better to adopt a tiered membership system based on the amount of rounds you want to play. That's the way forward.

 

[rikkitikk]

But what happens to the 35-40 year old that wants to play, but cannot afford the subs for one full price membership?

Interesting point and sadly the answer would seem to be that they aren't catered for. It does seem to be a harsh reality that you join as either 5 or 7 day or not at all and are expected to pay green fees to satisfy the golfing cravings.

I don't think subsidies for that age bracket are fair. No offence but why should I fork out my £1300 aged 40 and you get a % discount based purely on your age and being five years younger. As I said, joining any golf club is a luxury and so if needs to be balanced up against what else is important in your life.

I think my club is offering a limited form of membership this year where you can play something like 12 times per year (including comps - but not honours boards events - with an active handicap) but don't get voting rights etc. Once your 12 rounds are done you can get a green fee at members guest rate. I know one member who was made redundant and has gone onto it. Not sure if it is being offered to prospecitve members or is just a way of keeping those it has who are struggling.

Being a 33 year old sole earner (wife is at home with the 2 kids) I would like to join a golf club as a full member but find the fees too expensive and limited time to play.

Having looked around I have found that some courses are starting to offer limited membership so pay upfront and get x rounds so suits me perfectly financially and time wise. Am surprised that this has not been offered years ago as you can get a few people through the door rather than one or two when they can afford the full fee.

Homer - Who should I get in touch with for more details about the membership?

 

[USER1999]

I find it amusing, the view that 50 somethings don't know what it is like to be 30, so shouldn't be making policy decisions at golf clubs that effect 30 somethings.

How did they get to be 50?

 

[Robobum]

Is this really as progressive as the thinking gets on here (or as progressive as it gets for most clubs)?

Most on here, and clubs, are guessing as to who can and cant pay and will and wont pay what? No commissioning of research, no thinking outside the box etc

If I ran a club Id get some research done (it prob already exists). Then Id structure various membership categories ranging from 7 day full membership unlimited all the way down to membership incl 1 round per month (the only age discrepancies would be upto 3 years after full time education), with a large proportion likely to be on a credits based memebrship scheme, though with the right research Id look at long term members benefits.

Id be looking to make sure members contribute to the club in addtion to fees, whether it be bar, restaurant and/or shop as well as to addressing the balance between members and guests contributions (if you dont want socieities then your gonna pay for it in fees!)

I just think 99% of clubs are so far behind the times that they havent properly considered the impact of the structure of their current membership, or the fee structure on their future membership (and in some cases the feasibility of their clubs!).

The sad fact of it all is the current financial climate is gonna severely reduce the amout of money a lot of people can spend on luxury items, of which golf is ultimately one. The other big problem most golf clubs have is that nearly every decision maker is 50+ years old and in a lot of cases, has very little idea of the challenges facing those younger than themselves.

Too many of them are treated as old style members clubs, whereas they need to be treated as quasi businesses if they are to ensure their longevity, the sad thing being most of them will only realise this when its too late.

Very good Fundy, but who will administer all the new schemes?? If you are offering (basically) unlimited membership options you will have to employ at least 1 new admin staff @ say £13K minimum. That's a lot of new memberships you have to sell each year.

 

[SammmeBee]

Is this really as progressive as the thinking gets on here (or as progressive as it gets for most clubs)?

Most on here, and clubs, are guessing as to who can and cant pay and will and wont pay what? No commissioning of research, no thinking outside the box etc

If I ran a club Id get some research done (it prob already exists). Then Id structure various membership categories ranging from 7 day full membership unlimited all the way down to membership incl 1 round per month (the only age discrepancies would be upto 3 years after full time education), with a large proportion likely to be on a credits based memebrship scheme, though with the right research Id look at long term members benefits.

Id be looking to make sure members contribute to the club in addtion to fees, whether it be bar, restaurant and/or shop as well as to addressing the balance between members and guests contributions (if you dont want socieities then your gonna pay for it in fees!)

I just think 99% of clubs are so far behind the times that they havent properly considered the impact of the structure of their current membership, or the fee structure on their future membership (and in some cases the feasibility of their clubs!).

The sad fact of it all is the current financial climate is gonna severely reduce the amout of money a lot of people can spend on luxury items, of which golf is ultimately one. The other big problem most golf clubs have is that nearly every decision maker is 50+ years old and in a lot of cases, has very little idea of the challenges facing those younger than themselves.

Too many of them are treated as old style members clubs, whereas they need to be treated as quasi businesses if they are to ensure their longevity, the sad thing being most of them will only realise this when its too late.

Very good Fundy, but who will administer all the new schemes?? If you are offering (basically) unlimited membership options you will have to employ at least 1 new admin staff @ say £13K minimum. That's a lot of new memberships you have to sell each year.

I think he is also not thinking about the most important members of the club - the ones who pay up year on year and hardly ever play. If you were to give them an option to pay 'less' then you, as a 'regular', who probably end up having to pay more....

 

[golfinger]

Speaking as a 31 year old with a healthy income (plus an unhealthy: 2 kids, 2 cars, whacking great mortgage), I can honestly say it would suit me most to play at a club where I could pay a monthly fee spread accross 12 months by direct debit without large penalties for doing so, and pay no joining fee.

Young (20-30) people quite often have lots of disposable income, they just don't know it and are rubbish at managing money. Therefore they struggle with making infrequent larger payments. As people get a bit older (into the children and mortgage period) they have less disposable income (more salary but more costs) but are better at managing it, but still (like me) have few opportunities to squirrel away the cash it takes to join some clubs.

My point is simply that younger people don't (always) need discounts, they sometimes need flexibility.

 

[coolhand]

Another really interesting debate about membership but what’s not clear is what is the goal?

A) More members?
or
B) More/maintained revenue?

They require very different approaches, often in ways that have are incompatible.

 

[surefire]

Another really interesting debate about membership but what’s not clear is what is the goal?

A) More members?
or
B) More/maintained revenue?

They require very different approaches, often in ways that have are incompatible.

I was wondering along similar lines.

Also what if the club just wants to have a certain spread of demographic amongst its membership?

 

[Region3]

Aren't some clubs still men only?

If they can legally get away with that the the age thing hasn't a prayer.

For what it's worth I agree with the tired levels of membership depending on age.

I had to give up when I was in my early twenties when I got married as I just couldn't afford it.

I could have afforded to start playing again before last year (when I did) but it just never occurred to me to want to start again.
If I could have carried on playing at a reduced fee I wouldn't have had 20 years out.

 

[jimmusuk]

Great topic.

My P.O.V. @26.

I think there is a problem not only with the cost of golf clubs for ALL age groups but the perception of golf clubs as elitist to the younger players.

People I know who play golf (brothers and friends/friends of brothers etc are aged 22-28) are ALL unable to afford local golf club membership fees (we have clubs in this area starting from 400 ish squids p/a). They all play pay and play courses when and if they have some spare cash, rest of the time spent on range.

As new to golf I am looking to join in 2011. Not rolling in cash as have mortgage, massive student debt (repayments deducted from salary @5%'ish), car to run but no kids (that I know of ;p ). My decision on joining a club for 2011 will therefore be mainly based on cost. More than the mid to high hundreds and I won't be joining, and therefore won't be playing as much golf as I want too (which is a shame), simples.

If a club will offer me a lower rate for being a youngen then I will snap it up and likely get my mates to join and spend mahoney in their shop etc etc. I don't necessarily agree with the young = subsidised rate policy though.

Is a younger person more deserving of a lower rate? I don't think so. Young people are bad with money, often get hand outs from their parents and waste it on beer and women (18-22) and are likely to be at uni and uninterested in golf. Older people have greater responsibility but greater budgeting skills and therefore better cash flow(?).

Seems to me the only people who can afford to play golf comfortably, without sacrifices are those on high salaries, confirming the view that many people hold of golf as being elitist and unavailable to the masses.

Many people, young or older (who don't have bundles of cash) are simply not willing to sacrifice something in their life to enable them to play golf and therefore don't join up and don't play. This scenario does not exist for the more 'popular' sports e.g. football, rugby etc.

Is there any way to make golf cheaper? Clubs need to work on increasing revenue, this will drive down membership fees?

I noticed a comment above regarding multiple membership types starting from 1 round per month up to full 7 day memberships would cost £13k p/a to admin. I would suggest using a computer programme to manage members, they swipe their card when they play (Low tech: or the shop staff enter a membership number into a computer system), the system flags up how many rounds they have left for the month, simples. I could write a programme like that for far less than 13k let me tell you. You could even build a online membership management system to be used across multiple locations simultaneously. The clubs would have an initial outlay of a few grand (or less if they can find some open-source software that would do the job) and setup time but this would save time in the long run and allow tremendous flexibility and likely attract more players from all age groups and all incomes. Flexible golf to suit your time and income? What more could you want!!

Sorry for the novel, maybe if i spent more time practicing and less time typing i'd be able to hit the ball!

jim

 

[Fore]

I think it's accepted in all forms of sport that you have to look after the youth side of things generally as they are the future, wether it be fishing, golf or whatever.
I believe my club have come up with a good idea recently regarding full membership. They operate a Pay as you Play option. You pay a basic membership fee which is about a third of the full 7 day membership cost and a reduced green fee each time you play. The green fee is about 40% of the visitors rate and the membership fee is payable over 10 months. This carries the same entitlement as ordinary full membership regarding playing times and competitions allowed.
This is ideal if you do not play at least twice a week due to other commitments andi can see this really appealing to members who have other commitments such as families and jobs.
The club also operate a junior membership for u18'S and a colt membership for 18 - 25 age group.
I do agree that clubs maybe need to become attractive to the u40's more though and maybe offer a Gym and swimming pool and other such extras which could perhaps attract the whole family along.
I am over 50 and even i get fed up with the Dinner jacket do's all the time. Sometimes you wonder if it's a golf club or the masons you are joining!