Tashyboy
Please don’t ask to see my tatts 👍
Good thing or a bad thing.
Fall in EU nurses registering in the UK
- Thread starter Tashyboy
- Start date
D
Deleted member 15344
Guest
Depends on if the shortfall is filled by UK nurses - if they don't get the recruits then it's a very poor thing
MegaSteve
Tour Winner
Can't ever be a "good thing"... Can it?
Should be a wake up call though... To all employers who have welched on training and taken the easy option offered by globalisation...
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
A 96% fall since July 2016 is a cliff-edge fall that will be very difficult to cover by UK trained nurses - and what were that fall to continue. Meanwhile what is the reason for the fall? Can't be that the nursing job has changed since July 2016 - so what has?
JohnnyDee
Tour Winner
Very bad in my view. This is being reported today in the context of figures just published showing a 96% reduction in EU people registering to work in nursing here since the Brexit vote last year.
HiD was in hospital for 7 weeks a while ago and there were very few non-EU nurses on her ward. I had a mate in for another 8 weeks and same thing again.
I think that nursing is such an undervalued profession and the wages are so poor (which is a total disgrace), that in common with many other trades and professions, it is no longer seen as a viable vocation or even career choice for UK residents hoping to get on the housing ladder etc. Hence the large number of non UK people filling the posts currently.
Similar to the nursing profession I have a family member in residential care and guess what? Same thing applies.
And before the Brexit posse arrives - I'm not saying I found this to be the case exclusively in either area, but certainly the general EU numbers were by far and away the majority.
HiD was in hospital for 7 weeks a while ago and there were very few non-EU nurses on her ward. I had a mate in for another 8 weeks and same thing again.
I think that nursing is such an undervalued profession and the wages are so poor (which is a total disgrace), that in common with many other trades and professions, it is no longer seen as a viable vocation or even career choice for UK residents hoping to get on the housing ladder etc. Hence the large number of non UK people filling the posts currently.
Similar to the nursing profession I have a family member in residential care and guess what? Same thing applies.
And before the Brexit posse arrives - I'm not saying I found this to be the case exclusively in either area, but certainly the general EU numbers were by far and away the majority.
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D
Deleted Member 1156
Guest
Well it's gone full circle. My ex wife was in nursing recruitment 10 years ago and she couldn't find jobs for UK trained nurses as there was an excess!
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
Strikes me that the government is going to have reinstate burseries and payment of course fees for student nurses and fund the cost of that from the £350m/week.
A 96% fall off in nurses coming from the EU27 is possibly the first example of things going over a cliff edge because of Brexit...because the job hasn't changed since July 2016 so what else has if not the UK as an attractive place to live and work.
A 96% fall off in nurses coming from the EU27 is possibly the first example of things going over a cliff edge because of Brexit...because the job hasn't changed since July 2016 so what else has if not the UK as an attractive place to live and work.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
And not only are the numbers coming here falling - but the numbers leaving the UK are increasing.
Which would no doubt delight some - and it would be OK if we were in a position to replace them - but today we are not.
Which would no doubt delight some - and it would be OK if we were in a position to replace them - but today we are not.
I believe there are thousands that we have but they go through agencies milking the system getting more money rather than working direct. This is what we need to address, we need to incentivise those at agencies that it's better to be employed directly and win them over. I think this is the same in quite a few other market sectors also, agencies are having a field day, but if we can pay agency rates, then why can't give that extra revenue direct to the nurses in some way?
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
It's not just money that causes some nurses to work through agencies. The stress and culture of blame in the NHS these days is utterly grim, with managers often seeking to push responsibility for problems down the chain rather accepting managerial responsibility themselves. This all being exacerbated by targets; staffing problems; length of shifts, and litigation. With all these pressures many nurses are expected to work 12 hour shifts - yes - 12 hrs...
Working through an agency you can just stop when you've had enough - and restart when you feel able - if you ever feel able.
Also the rules on bringing on board agency nurses are strict - but when you don't have enough nurses?...It used to be that student nurses were supernumerary - not any more...they count towards the minimum staffing levels and have to carry the load and often the responsibilities of qualified nurses. And these days these student nurses are paying for that pleasure...
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Tashyboy
Please don’t ask to see my tatts 👍
Obviously it cannot be a good thing being short of nurses, no differant to being short of firemen, Police etc.
The police have already had there say re cuts in firearms police and the potential knock on effect. Argue amongst yourselves whether any more could of been done to prevent the recent terror attacks had those cuts not been made.
But back to the nurses. the Nursing and Midwifery Council say that the recent English tests which EU nurses now have to take, may be part of it. Something that Non EU nurses already had to do. Eh, double standards for a nurse, who allowed that. Reminds me of the time someone accused her of victimisation, coz she would not set a woman on from Thailand who never spoke a word of English apart from
" Me love you long time".
Whatever the reasons, the bottom line is that a shortage of nurses means an increase in agency staff and you can bet your bottom dollar, that top dollar will be paid for that service. For a government that insists on reform in council services, sharing services, cutting services and costs. It is quite flippant when it comes to throwing money away when it comes to the NHS. Again I will let you argue amongst yourselves over why that may be. I won't mention privatisation😉
Re nursing, the government is saying that all students now have to pay there way re Uni. Largely I understand that. mr Corbyn picked up on that and got the young vote by saying al send you through uni free of charge. The young uns jumped on it without even thinking, " er who's gonna pay for me to go through Uni and then work in the private sector", and quite frankly they probably never give a poo. However re student nurses having to pay there way. how's that right? As soon as there qualified, Joe public is the first person that benefits. Why are we, the tax payer not paying for our kids to go through nursing training, pr any training that benefits Joe public. Quite frankly it stinks.
It should come as a suprise to no one that this was always going to happen.
Just seen the figures on the BBC site re how many EU and non EU nurses we have working in the NHS and quite frankly out of 650,000 nurses it is shocking.
Rocky times ahead me finks.
Thank the lord Missis Ts phalanx holding career in the NHS is finished in 19 days.
Not had chance to have a natter with her yet, if she says owt of interest al pass on her thoughts.
The police have already had there say re cuts in firearms police and the potential knock on effect. Argue amongst yourselves whether any more could of been done to prevent the recent terror attacks had those cuts not been made.
But back to the nurses. the Nursing and Midwifery Council say that the recent English tests which EU nurses now have to take, may be part of it. Something that Non EU nurses already had to do. Eh, double standards for a nurse, who allowed that. Reminds me of the time someone accused her of victimisation, coz she would not set a woman on from Thailand who never spoke a word of English apart from
" Me love you long time".
Whatever the reasons, the bottom line is that a shortage of nurses means an increase in agency staff and you can bet your bottom dollar, that top dollar will be paid for that service. For a government that insists on reform in council services, sharing services, cutting services and costs. It is quite flippant when it comes to throwing money away when it comes to the NHS. Again I will let you argue amongst yourselves over why that may be. I won't mention privatisation😉
Re nursing, the government is saying that all students now have to pay there way re Uni. Largely I understand that. mr Corbyn picked up on that and got the young vote by saying al send you through uni free of charge. The young uns jumped on it without even thinking, " er who's gonna pay for me to go through Uni and then work in the private sector", and quite frankly they probably never give a poo. However re student nurses having to pay there way. how's that right? As soon as there qualified, Joe public is the first person that benefits. Why are we, the tax payer not paying for our kids to go through nursing training, pr any training that benefits Joe public. Quite frankly it stinks.
It should come as a suprise to no one that this was always going to happen.
Just seen the figures on the BBC site re how many EU and non EU nurses we have working in the NHS and quite frankly out of 650,000 nurses it is shocking.
Rocky times ahead me finks.
Thank the lord Missis Ts phalanx holding career in the NHS is finished in 19 days.
Not had chance to have a natter with her yet, if she says owt of interest al pass on her thoughts.
Foxholer
Blackballed
Well the obvious short-term solution is to employ more Non-EU nurses!
This particular situation simply reflects the change that the Brexit vote has brought about! See this report for details https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...y2017#net-migration-to-the-uk-falls-to-248000
This particular situation simply reflects the change that the Brexit vote has brought about! See this report for details https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...y2017#net-migration-to-the-uk-falls-to-248000
I tend to agree with this. We both may be wrong but perhaps not.
Tashyboy
Please don’t ask to see my tatts 👍
I don't think the three of us are wrong though LT, out of 650,000 nurses 103,000 are non uk nurses. Someone needs to have a very good arguement to persuade me/us that this country has neglected the training of nurses for a long time, and will continue to neglect the training of nurses for a long time to come.
As someone on the front line of NHS recruitment let me state how dangerous this situation is. Not only is there an increasing gulf between newly qualified nursed out of uni and those with significant and varied clinical experience, but in specialist areas like midwifery there is an even bigger shortfall in even getting newly qualifieds
When most hospitals (certainly the one I'm at) running at a massive deficit and the board demanding a huge cut in agency nurses and their costs it's going to leave a massive and sooner or later, clinically risky, deficit in care. We use to regularly recruit nurses from Portugal and Ireland and those avenues are drying up.
I'm not sure we've neglected the training of nurses and the qualification for both nurses and midwives are as thorough as they have been but it's an issue getting them to pursue a nursing career, endure three years of study and the costs involved in that, and then into a role starting at band 5 at £22,128. Many trusts have been forced to withdraw any recruitment/retention payment to save costs and so moving to a different area even in nursing accommodation is not an enticing prospect for many. The core problem is getting people into the profession and then keeping them at your hospital once they join. We're offering golden hello payments with repayment costs if they leave progressively up to a two year period
Whatever the right or wrongs, and where the blame lies, it remains a very hard task to recruit quality nurses from any reliable source possible. That is only going to get worse
When most hospitals (certainly the one I'm at) running at a massive deficit and the board demanding a huge cut in agency nurses and their costs it's going to leave a massive and sooner or later, clinically risky, deficit in care. We use to regularly recruit nurses from Portugal and Ireland and those avenues are drying up.
I'm not sure we've neglected the training of nurses and the qualification for both nurses and midwives are as thorough as they have been but it's an issue getting them to pursue a nursing career, endure three years of study and the costs involved in that, and then into a role starting at band 5 at £22,128. Many trusts have been forced to withdraw any recruitment/retention payment to save costs and so moving to a different area even in nursing accommodation is not an enticing prospect for many. The core problem is getting people into the profession and then keeping them at your hospital once they join. We're offering golden hello payments with repayment costs if they leave progressively up to a two year period
Whatever the right or wrongs, and where the blame lies, it remains a very hard task to recruit quality nurses from any reliable source possible. That is only going to get worse
Tashyboy
Please don’t ask to see my tatts 👍
Ironically, whilst faffing about on the BBC site, the local news today shows an Italian woman being struck off the NMC register because she could not speak English. She told patients who were suffering to " be quite" because she could not communicate with them. How's does it get to that?
Very good question. We've had a number of Italian midwives applying for roles and attending our assessment centres and failing the initial test paper (basic drugs calculation and English test), some shockingly so.
Tashyboy
Please don’t ask to see my tatts 👍
E no Bueno Homer ( it's not good Homer).
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
And you will recognise the 'aging workforce' timebomb. Mrs SILH is a Breast Care Nurse Specialist. She has worked in the NHS since she were a lass - starting as an SEN back in about 1977. She still keeps in close touch with many of the nurse friends she made back then. And as you can work out - they are now all in their mid-late 50s and planning to take their retirement in the next few years. Of the group - two are in nurse training - and they are OK. My wife and the others are just knackered and have had enough of the way things in nursing have changed so much.
She also trained as a midwife 26yrs ago and practiced for a few years. Of her cohort of a dozen I think only one remains as a practicing midwife - and she is finishing very soon as she is fed up getting criticised for spending too long with women and their new-born babies - when she is only delivering the care she was trained to deliver.
Even in my wife's current Breast Care team of six - another three are close to retirement.
Timebomb ticking.
SocketRocket
Ryder Cup Winner
I would suggest we need to stop employing Bank Staff. It's probably difficult to stop this in one swoop but maybe we need to make a clear plan to stop it completely over 12 months. These health care bank staff will then need to work for the NHS or go abroad.
